Force 120 Tilt/Trim pump motor seized

I have a 1994 Bayliner with a Force 120. Last summer the hydraulic tilt/trim pump motor started making a loud screeching noise sometimes when in use. Kind of like what one might expect if the bearings were going out in an electric motor. I checked the fluid level and everything seemed fine. I had planned on doing something about it after the season, but you know how things go...

This summer we're finally getting some great weather and tried to get the boat out last night (after charging the battery and then replacing it), the tilt control just "clicks" the relays but the pump motor doesn't even try to turn. Nothing. After the noises last year I assume the motor has completely frozen up. I'd like to replace the motor, but I'm stuck on a few issues:

1. I cannot find any part number, model number or anything on the pump other than a warning sticker. Any ideas where to look or how to fiture it out? (see picture below)

2. I need to release the pressure in the tilt sytem so I can lift the motor so I can work on the pump. I see the reservoir access, but I don't think that releases the pressure. I've heard something about a screw to release the pressure, but there is no marking anywhere about such a useful thing. Is that the screw on the top do you think? (the one that is up on a 1/4" high lump to the left of center. The others look like they are holding the top in place)

3. can I replace just the motor or should I replace the pump at the same time? Any suggestions for sources?

4. Any other tips for the whole process? Any links to manuals or antying that would help with this?



Thanks for the help. -Bret

Another qeustion: I know that you shouldn't tow with the motor resting on the hydraulics and always use the travel bar (once it's out of the water). But when we store it in the garage the bar holds the motor too far out to walk by so I lower it down and leave it setting in the garage resting on the hydraulic trim system. Is that bad? Do you think that caused this failure?

I would say that water got into the motor and the bearings / bushings rusted solid.----Might be repairable if you want to tackle it yourself for $---------If you buy a new motor of get shop help it will be $$$$$$$$$

Thanks racerone. That sounds like a very plausible explanation. Do you know where i could find the pressure release on this unit? I need to find that so I can lift the engine and then pull things apart. After looknig at a bunch of things online I'm pretture sure taking the reservoir fill cap off isn't going to do it and in some other model I was able to find the release screw underneath the pump assembly. I didn't notice anything like that on mine, but I didn't take a close look at the bottom of the unit last night. I'll check it out when I get home. Any other suggestions of where to look?

use the generic square base mercury 2w trim motor for 1989-2003 Mercury 40-120HP engines. TRM0047. Should cost $130-$170 depending upon seller and shipping.
T top off old motor and look for water or rust. If there is water then drain and refill system. If there is a lot of water
the use an allen wrench and check pump gears by hand. If they are frozen or bind then your gears are burned and you may need a replacement pump.

Thanks rrit. I discovered that before '95 they did not have a pressure release valve setup, so I just blocked up the motor and unhooked the pump. The electric motor was completed rusted solid. The pump part seems to work well and turns smoothly. The fluid didn't appear to have any water, but definitely had plenty of rust mixed in so I'll attempt to replace as much as possible.

Here's the motor I was planning to buy. Does this look like the right one?: http://www.amazon.com/Tilt-Motor-Re...UTF8&colid=XB1P4P2NNOLD&coliid=I388DXZPEB5HTO (In the reviews someone mentions that it comes with several hex shafts so you can get the correct length where as reviews for other motors complained about the one shaft wasn't the right length).

I also need to get some new fluid, but I don't know how much to get? Are the 10oz tubes sufficient? Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Pennzoil-3382...9&sr=8-1&keywords=marine+hydraulic+tilt+fluid

While I'm at it I need to replace the gear case lube. I was thinking to use this. What do you think? http://www.amazon.com/Quicksilver-5...-fkmr0&keywords=force+outboard+gear+case+lube

The big questions now: How much tilt/trim fluid do I need? Does that motor look like it will work?

Thanks for your help!
-Bret

well, I hope thoese were the right things because I placed the order . I guess I'll see when they arrive. I ordered 20oz total of the tilt fluid and I hope that's enough (seems like it shoudl be). Thanks for the help.

That looks like the housing. What color is the oil in pump? Some use T@T fluid some use 30w motor oil.

The housing of the one on Amazon is a little different, but apparently they don't make the identical ones anymore but this is supposed to fit (according to the reviews, specifically one who has the exact boat I have). The oil in the pump was pretty dark, much like motor oil, but it had rust in it as well so there were more "brown" areas where the rust had blended in. The owners manual for the Force outboard talks about using Tilt Fluid, so I assumed I'd want to use that. Is it some special color? The stuff in the pump did look similar to 30w motor oil (and I have some laying around).

If it's brown and NO red it's probably motor oil.If you change now to T/T red it's possible to ruin the seals. Plus you'll never completly get rid of the old oil in the system. When you install the new motor. You'll need to add fluid, then cack a line and fill and run.Try to flush out the old.

Well, I didn't notice any red, but I'll take a closer look tonight. Is it possible that it was red and that over time with oxygenization and mixing in some rust that it just turned dark brown? I'm guessing that the fluid is still whatever came from bayliner/force. Did they typically put in 30w?

The seals all seem fine right now so I'd hate to do anything that would ruin them. Shoudl I stick with 30w oil then?

Thanks for the info Jerry.

30W.Yup.

I took a closer look at the fluid and put a few drops of it on something white and compared it to some 5w30 I had laying around. Definitely 30W oil. I'll hit Napa tomorrow and get some non-detergent 30W to use. I guess I'll put the tilt stuff on a shelf somewhere because it's not worth sending back . Thanks again Jerry for pointing this out. It would've been really bad to have the seals go out soon after fixing this .


Another question while I'm at it. Once I have the new motor in place, is there any oil I'm supposed add to the electric motor? The old setup seemed to have a screw on top that would seal off an oiling location but it wasn't marked or anything. Just wondering if there is anything I should do to help prevent the motor from rusting up again.

Thanks! -Bret

It rusted because an o-ring or seal took a crap. I usually paint the units. I put on as many coats as I can. Usually 5 or more. The top where the wire comes out, it can leak there too. Try to secure it so it doesn't move and then sillycone and lots of paint. You might have to rough up the case so the paint will stick?

that year and style of pump should use hydraulic oil. ISO32 is ideal but "tractor fluid HO" will do just fine. If you use ATF make sure there are absolutely no cleaning additives. ATF has a history of being linked to trim piston ring failure in 1992-1994 120-150HP systems.

rrit, does ISO32 dydraulic oil look the same as 30W or does it have some color to help identify? The stuff that was in there previously was definitely a brown, motor oil loking color. Is there a good way to tell if the old stuff was ISO32 or 30W? (I'm making a trip to NAPA soon and would like to know which to get).
Thanks,
Bret

OK, I'm learnign that ISO32 is similar to 10W SAE on the viscosity measurement, but that even non-detergent motor oil probably has different additives than hydraulic oil.

So, why is it bad to switch to the Penzoil tilt fluid? It talks about additives to inhibit rust and such which sound good, but are those the things that damage the seals? Why is it that changing the fluid damages the seals while if they started with that it wouldn't? (or would the seals have been different if it started with that fluid)

OK, I'm totally confused now as to what fluid to use. The manual says somethig about "quicksilver tilt", but I can't find any of that and figured any namebrand tilt fluid would be about the same. But if changing fluids will damage the seals I definitely don't want to do that.

Any guidance you guys can agree on for this? Any way to figure out what was there previously (as it's been working OK for 20 years)?

go to auto boys and buy a quart of hydraulic jack oil. not ideal but better than anything else being discussed.

Well, I got the Penzoil Tilt/Hydraulic fluid that I ordered from Amazon and checked it out. It looks exactly like the stuff that came out of the system. It looks like basic, brown oil. No red coloring or anything. I'm guessing that this is pretty generic hydraulic fluid and probably matches what came out of the system. Unless there is some way to tell really what was in the system previously, I'm going to assume it was similar hydraulic fluid and just go ahead and use this penzoil stuff that I've already purchased.

Any reason to do otherwise?

nope. If it looks like oil and says "hydraulic" on the bottle then it was designed to be used in a steel based system using nitrile rubber seals. You're good to go.

Thanks rrit. That makes complete sense to me. The pump won't arrive until after the weekend so it will likely be another week before I get it together and test it out. I'll let you all know how it goes together. Thanks for the help.

OK, the pump came last week and I was able to install it in just a few minutes on Saturday. Refilled with the tilt fluid I got from amazon and it worked perfectly. In fact, it actually tilts faster than it did previously (took a few times to get used to the speed). Working perfectly. I then spent way too long trying to get the gear lube replaced and finally went to a store and bought a pump that made the job easy.

Aftrer I was able to get the engine up and gear lube replaced I pulled it out of the garage and it cranked right up perfectly. We even were able to take it out to the lake and had a great time. Thanks for helping me get the boat back in working order! -Bret