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'06 BF225 check engine light and audible alarm, but only at idle...? Please help!

PhatFireMan

PhatFireMan

Member
My '06 BF-225 is acting up, but running fine as far as I can tell. Looking for a little advice on which direction to go with it...


I ran it out to the Islands couple days ago, 18 miles, no problem. As soon as I came to a stop and idled for a couple minutes...the "check engine" red light came on steady and I got an intermittent beeping alarm. Indicative of an over-heating alarm from my experience, but a good pee stream at the time. Shut it down right away, checked it but found nothing blocking the intake, started it back up, good pee stream, no alarm. Ran it up to cruising speed right away, no issues. About 10 minutes later I was at idle again while setting the anchor, same problem came up. Shut it down, started it up, no more alarm. Happened about 5 more times during the overnight fishing trip, but only at idle every time. Good pee stream every time the alarm happened, although I did notice once when the alarm sounded...the pee stream suddenly became stronger just before I shut it down? Ran back to the harbor without a hiccup. Even able to cruise through the no-wake zone in the marina without an alarm, but again that is just above idle.


I did the impeller last Fall, only maybe 20 hours put on it since then. Motor has 380 hours on it right now. PSI gauge showing 0 while at idle, which it always has. Pressure comes up right away as you throttle up. Showing 20-25 at cruising speed, which is 4250-4500 RPM. Which I seem to think is normal range based on my experience with it. So...doesn't seem to have a water pressure issue as far as I can tell.


I have a new impeller kit in the garage that I can throw at it, but I am thinking that is not the problem. After talking with a few knowledgeable folks I have been told it may be a bad/stuck thermostat, or maybe a bad temp sensor...? Another friend had a very similar problem with his '03 BF-225, and it was a sensor. Looking in the manual the two thermostats look easy enough to change out, but I'm at a loss as far as the sensor. I have an OBD-II code reader...is there an interface somewhere on this motor?

I also heard there was a thermostat housing corrosion recall somewhere around '03-'04 maybe? I bought the boat almost two years ago and was told the motor was an '06, but a Honda tech from another forum told me that based on my serial numbers the motor is actually an '03...? :confused: The motor did come with an '06 manual.

Here are my serial numbers:

Frame #BAGJ1401807
Block #BEAGJ-1102240


Any thoughts? Any help is GREATLY appreciated. :cool:

Thanks,

Kris
 
One thing that also happens at idle is that your alternator output may drop very low. Have you checked what the voltages are doing when the alarm comes on. Maybe a long shot, but a very quick check to do with a voltmeter.
 
Do you have two lights or four lights on your key switch console? If four lights, are any other red ones on, or blinking? (Green oil pressure light should be on whenever engine is running.) Is the intermittent alarm a series of short beeps, or long beeps? If short beeps, empty your fuel-water separator and make sure the wireing is clean & tight, and the float moves up and down freely.
 
Indicative of an over-heating alarm from my experience, but a good pee stream at the time.

What you're describing (check engine light and intermittent buzzer) is a PGM-FI fuel injection anomaly (either air, fuel, or both), pretty sure that's the only time that light illuminates. May not be the only thing wrong, but that's what is triggering the alarms you describe, page 29 in my 2005 manual. Run a can of SeaFoam through the motor at the appropriate ratio and see what happens ...
 
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I have a 4-light key-switch console, and one of the other lights is the battery/low-voltage indicator light. The only light (other than the green one of course) that comes on is the "CHECK ENGINE" light, and it is an intermittent long beep, not a short beep. I heard/saw this alarm once before and it was definitely an overheating situation. I run Sta-Bil Marine Formula and Lucas Oil Injector Cleaner through it pretty regularly.
 
Just to be clear, the four lights on you panel are: Oil pressure (green), overheat (red), alternator (red), and MIL or check engine (red), and the only light that comes on is the red check engine/MIL light, correct? If so, that probably eliminates the overheat isue. Typically, the check engine light alone indicates a problem with your programmed fuel injection system. The only way to pinpoint it is to pull the codes off the EPROM. Your OBD-II reader can't read the Honda outboard codes. A Honda Marine dealer can use Dr. H diagnostic reader to get the codes or you can do it yourself.

Takeoff the engine cover and the plastic cover over the electronics on the front ofthe engine. There you will see a red four-pronged female plug. Use a paper clipto shunt the lime green/white wire to the black wire – that is, the two wiresthat are closest to the engine when the red service connector is correctly setin its holder. If in doubt, invest in a SCS service connector, which you canorder online - part number 070PZ-ZY30100.
Onceconnected, turn on the key switch and observe the number of blinks on the checkengine (MIL) light. The blinks will repeat until you turn off the key.
Ifthe MIL comes on and stays on without blinking, you have one of the followingconditions:
• Short circuit in the service checkconnector wire
• Short circuit in the MIL wire
• Short circuit in the sensor system powersupply
• Open circuit in the power supply line tothe ECM
• Faulty ECM
Ifthe MIL comes on, then goes off after a few seconds, there are no codes in theEPROM.
Ifthe MIL starts blinking, then count the blinks, which will indicate the faultcode. You may get long blinks and short blinks. For example, two long blinks,followed by five short blinks, would be a fault code 25. The blink sequencewill repeat itself until you turn the key off. If there is more than one fault,you will get multiple fault codes. For example, three short blinks, followed bytwo long blinks and five short blinks would be fault codes 3 and 25. Post thenumber of blinks and I will try to tell you what the error code is. Or, send mean e-mail at [email protected] and I will send you the codes.
Ifyou get only one blink, that repeats about every three seconds, that is afaulty O2 sensor. If a faulty O2 sensor is indicated, first check the wiringand connector. A loose or corroded connection can set off that alarm.
 
I will go get the boat and check the codes TODAY. Glad I didn't throw an impeller at it!

Thank you all for the input and the help, sorry I was confused about what lights were actually what.
 
chawk_man said:
If you get only one blink, that repeats about every three seconds, that is a faulty O2 sensor. If a faulty O2 sensor is indicated, first check the wiringand connector. A loose or corroded connection can set off that alarm.
Click to expand...

This is what I got. Connections and wiring to the O2 sensor look to be in great shape from the outside. Trying to get the sensor off right now to look inside the connectors and to see if I can get a part number off the sensor, try to get one at the AutoZone down the street.

How do I clear the ECM trouble codes...?

Thanks!
 
This was posted by HondaDude a few years ago...

Clearing Fault Codes (From Honda Dude)
Essentially,to clear the codes, you operate the kill switch 5 times with the shunt (shortingdevice, or paper clip) in place and within 20 seconds of the key switch beingon.
Irecommend grabbing the safety lanyard very close to the switch that it isattached to so you can pull it to off and push it to on without losing thelanyard.
· Connectthe shunting device (technical term for paper clip.)
· Turnon the key switch.
· Pullthe safety switch to off, then push to on, then pull to off, then push to on,then pull to off, then push to on, then pull to off, then push to on, then pullto off. That should be five times off and on and off within 20 seconds fromwhen you turn the key switch to on. When you get to the fifth time off...youshould hear one or two beeps. The codes are clear. If you did not hear thebeeps, try again.
· Turnthe key switch off
Removethe shunting device and run the engine. Then check for codes again. If all isclear, you may just have had a onetime occurrence. If you do have codes, youwill just have to troubleshoot depending on the code number that you get.
 
Pulled the O2 sensor out, going to try and find a replacement. I got this part # for the sensor 35655-ZY3-013, can anyone verify that? Found it online for $167, ouch!

Any way for one of you techs to see if my exhaust pipes have been done under warranty by the previous owner in accordance with SB#56? Or if they even need to be done?

Thanks!
 
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Also, I'm pretty sure the automotive HO2 sensor will not work.
I have not heard of anyone on this or any other forum successfullyreplacing the BF225 O2 sensor with one made for an auto. My thinkingon this issue is that even though the BF225 is a basic Honda J35A engine, theECM as not the same, thus the O2 sensor is likely specific to the BF 200 and BF225 ECM.
Besides that, there are so many tightwads on this forum, that ifsuch a replacement worked, someone would have figured it out by now.
 
chawk_man said:
Also, I'm pretty sure the automotive HO2 sensor will not work.
I have not heard of anyone on this or any other forum successfullyreplacing the BF225 O2 sensor with one made for an auto. My thinkingon this issue is that even though the BF225 is a basic Honda J35A engine, theECM as not the same, thus the O2 sensor is likely specific to the BF 200 and BF225 ECM.
Besides that, there are so many tightwads on this forum, that ifsuch a replacement worked, someone would have figured it out by now.
Click to expand...

Copy that. AutoZone couldn't even get me spark plugs for this motor...so an O2 sensor is probably a lofty goal! BTW I edited my above post while you were replying to it. Thanks!
 
If you call Honda customer service, they can tell you whether a dealer did the SB #56 changeout. They may also verify that is the latest part number for the HO2 sensor.

Honda Customer Service number is 770-497-6400.
 
Called customer service, they could/would not verify any parts numbers unfortunately. Local dealer, where the motor was purchased originally, verified that SB#56 had not been completed, but since it is not a recall I would have to pay for the repair. They recommended that I just change the sensor for now and see what happens. The SB was for recurring O2 sensor failures, I'll keep my finger crossed.

I was able to order the O2 sensor, and six spark plugs for my upcoming 400-hour service (NGK #IZFR6F11), for $263, free shipping, from boats.net. Pretty darn good, considering the local shop wanted $197 for the sensor and $19 for each plug.

Once I get the new sensor installed, and clear the ECM codes, I will run it and see what happens. Thanks again BIG TIME for the help, saved me a bunch of money I am sure!
 
That was an exceptionally good price.

First, let's make sure your motor has the exhaust tube problem that is at the root of SB #56. Send me an e-mail at [email protected] and I will return a copy of the SB in .PDF format. You can then check your SN against those in the SB on page 1. Page 7 of the SB provides guidance on how to mitigate the issue.

If you do fall within the SN range, then my recommendation is to get the work done or do it yourself. Otherwise, you likely will be replacing the HO2 sensor again in the near future. The full procedure is shown in the SB. Essentially, you pull out the old exhaust tubes and replace them with the modified tubes. Honda sells a conversion kit with all the necessary parts. Several members of this forum have done the job themselves, but they were fairly mechanically inclined.
 
One more question, maybe related to this, since it just popped into my head and I forgot to mention it...

The motor stalls occasionally, usually this happens when decelerating rapidly straight from cruising speed down to neutral, but also occasionally when I'm just idling. Another thing it sometimes does...while cruising for extended periods the motor will "hunt" a little...RPMs will raise/lower slightly without touching the throttle. Only a minor change, say 200-300 RPM up or down. I changed all the fuel filters and cleaned the water separator last Fall thinking this may be the culprit, but no changes. Could any of that be related to an O2 sensor by chance?

Thanks
 
The "hunting" is actually pretty typical on the 225. It usually occurs in the low 4000 rpm range and it is due to the ECM trying to make up its mind on whether to switch into the V-Tech mode - that is, change the timing to become more efficient at the higher rpm's. It happens on my engine also. However, I've noted that after a period of time at not changing the throttle, it seems to settle down. Mike, Jimmy, or Chris may have a better explanation of what is going on there.

I assume that when you say "stalls" the moter quits running, correct? That should not be happening under any circumstances. First, it is never a good idea to go through rapid deceleration except in an emergency. The backwash can force water up the exhaust tubes when the pressure in the exhaust is very low. With your old exhaust tubes, that is one of the main reasons your HO2 sensor gets blown. Furthermore, under just the right circumstances, water can be injested into the cylinders, and that is a very bad situation. You need to carefully read page 7 of SB 56. When you replace you plugs, do a very careful inspection of the plug that comes out of cylinder # 6. That is the cylinder that is most often impacted by water injestion up the exhaust tubes.

An occasional stall at idle is very difficult to diagnose, especially if no codes are being thrown. When is the last time you drained the VST and changed the high pressure fuel filter?
 
chawk_man said:
The "hunting" is actually pretty typical on the 225. It usually occurs in the low 4000 rpm range and it is due to the ECM trying to make up its mind on whether to switch into the V-Tech mode - that is, change the timing to become more efficient at the higher rpm's. It happens on my engine also. However, I've noted that after a period of time at not changing the throttle, it seems to settle down.
Click to expand...
Yes, that sounds consistent with my experiences.

chawk_man said:
I assume that when you say "stalls" the moter quits running, correct? That should not be happening under any circumstances. First, it is never a good idea to go through rapid deceleration except in an emergency. The backwash can force water up the exhaust tubes when the pressure in the exhaust is very low. With your old exhaust tubes, that is one of the main reasons your HO2 sensor gets blown. Furthermore, under just the right circumstances, water can be injested into the cylinders, and that is a very bad situation. You need to carefully read page 7 of SB 56. When you replace you plugs, do a very careful inspection of the plug that comes out of cylinder # 6. That is the cylinder that is most often impacted by water injestion up the exhaust tubes.

An occasional stall at idle is very difficult to diagnose, especially if no codes are being thrown. When is the last time you drained the VST and changed the high pressure fuel filter?
Click to expand...
Yes, it stalls out completely. Yes, it is very rare but does occur. I changed the high-pressure filter last Fall, along with the other fuel filters and water separator. What is the VST?
 
Vapor separator tank. It basically prevents you from getting vapor lock in your fuel line. On the right rear of your engine you'll see a plastic tube in a holder that is open - it goes nowhere. Follow that to it's base. Beside it there is a small sloted screw. Put the end of the tube in a clear plastic quart jar. Then take a 10" screwdriver and slowly open the slotted screw counterclockwise. Don't open too far - no more than three turns or so - or you will be disassembling the lower cowling to find it. About a pint of fuel and any water or gunk will come out of that tube. Let it drain completely. If you see any water or gunk, that could be the source of your problem. If nothing comes out, reseat the screw and re-open several times. If nothing still comes out, try blowing low pressure compressed air back down the tube. If still nothing, it will need to be removed and cleaned.
 
chawk_man said:
Vapor separator tank. It basically prevents you from getting vapor lock in your fuel line. On the right rear of your engine you'll see a plastic tube in a holder that is open - it goes nowhere. Follow that to it's base. Beside it there is a small sloted screw. Put the end of the tube in a clear plastic quart jar. Then take a 10" screwdriver and slowly open the slotted screw counterclockwise. Don't open too far - no more than three turns or so - or you will be disassembling the lower cowling to find it. About a pint of fuel and any water or gunk will come out of that tube. Let it drain completely. If you see any water or gunk, that could be the source of your problem. If nothing comes out, reseat the screw and re-open several times. If nothing still comes out, try blowing low pressure compressed air back down the tube. If still nothing, it will need to be removed and cleaned.
Click to expand...

Copy, I'll check that out. Thanks!

Also...I was able to order the replacement exhaust pipe kit, plus misc gaskets and o-rings, through boats.net for about $130. SB#56 lists it as 2.5 hours of shop labor, so I'll double that for myself.

According to the SB#56 I could find one or more spark plugs seized from water being siphoned in during kick-back. Any tech tricks on how to get a plug out if it is seized? Torch? Penetrating oil? Giant hammer?:p
 
I'd give yourself a full day to change out the exhaust tubes. I haven't had to do it, but others say it takes some time. Take pictures of everything during disassembly, and keep nuts, bolts and parts from every system removed in a separate container.

As for removing the stuck plug, PB Blaster is about the best thing out there. Give it several hours, or overnight to soak in. Then fit on your socket, and back and forth, back and forth firmly, but gently. If still stuck, another dose of PB Blaster for several more hours. Just remember, you are working with a cast aluminum head.

I'm sure there will be others who have different techniques which may be better. Mike? Chris? Jimmy?
 
Do a search on SB 56 , I did mine not to difficult did two motors.. spark plug used pub blaster to loosen worked back and forth with level age was same plug on both motors

Take a look at previous posts of mine for pics and info
 
Preparing to do begin this project, just waiting on some backordered parts.

Going to replace my HO2 Sensor, along with installing upgraded exhaust tubes and an oil pan gasket as instructed in Service Bulletin #56. Also replacing spark plugs which are due at 400 hours and likely to be in bad shape given the potential water intrusion issue.

Side note...My motor number also falls within the range of SB#70, which is basically an upgrade of the HO2 sensor to a model with higher heat resistance, which also requires an ECM upgrade to run the new sensor. The kit #06356-ZY2-325, includes an upgraded HO2 sensor, a threaded adapter that allows the new sensor to be used with the existing exhaust manifold (smaller threads), and an upgraded ECM. Lowest price I could find on this kit was $750, full retail is about $1150. Ouch! For now I am opting to not do this kit, since it seems logical to me that the exhaust tube correction is the real root of the problem and should be adequate. I guess I'll know if/when the HO2 sensor goes out sooner rather than later, at that point I guess I'll have no choice. Plus...My motor does not fall under SB #71, which outlines ECM replacement based on HO2 Sensor failure issues. Seems a little weird that I am affected by one and not the other when it all is related.

Parts on order from boats.net:
  • (1) Exhaust Pipe Upgrade Kit, Honda #04101-ZY3-000 (includes L/R exhaust pipes and oil pan gasket), $120
  • (1) Heated O2 Sensor, Honda #35655-ZY3-013, $167
  • (2) Exhaust Pipe Gaskets, Honda #18333-ZY3-003, $6 each
  • (1) O-Ring, 20.6mm x 2.7mm, Honda #91324-PC6-000, $2
  • (6) Spark Plugs, NGK #IZFR6F11, $16 each

Since I am going to have it all torn apart, I was wondering if I should perform other preventative maintenance while I am in there...

Internal anodes - I do not know exactly where they are but I believe they are inside the exhaust system area? Seems like I should get this one done.

VST - Drain (hopefully), or remove and clean.

Thermostats - I have been hearing that there may be a corrosion issue with the housing on these...?

Impeller - I did it about 20 hours ago, less than a year now. I have a kit sitting on the shelf, however I think it might be a waste of money to do it so soon.

Anything else?

Any thoughts on the SB #70 topic? Seems like a very expensive fix that may/may not be necessary after doing the exhaust tubes. If there is good evidence to support SB#70 I would be willing to change my order before it ships and get the upgraded sensor along with the ECM to go with it. If I wait and have to do it later...I am basically eating $167 for a "disposable" HO2 sensor at that point. Please chime in.

Thanks! :cool:
 
I think you're taking the right course on SB #70. And yes, pull the t-stats and look around for signs of corrosion. The anodes are inside the manifolds. See page 5-119 of the Helm Shop Manual. Awhile ago someone posted the parts you will need to change them out..............................2x 12155-ZV5-000 Anodes
2x 93500-06018-4J Screw
1x 18115-ZY3-003 Gasket - Right side
1x 18125-ZY3-003 Gasket – Left side
 
chawk_man said:
I think you're taking the right course on SB #70. And yes, pull the t-stats and look around for signs of corrosion. The anodes are inside the manifolds. See page 5-119 of the Helm Shop Manual. Awhile ago someone posted the parts you will need to change them out..............................2x 12155-ZV5-000 Anodes
2x 93500-06018-4J Screw
1x 18115-ZY3-003 Gasket - Right side
1x 18125-ZY3-003 Gasket – Left side
Click to expand...

Looking at the online shop manual I have, which isn't that great but it was free, it looks like I will also need to replace a "66.4x3.1mm o-ring" and "exhaust guide seal" at the base of one, or both maybe, exhaust manifolds? And my manual shows tow anodes on one side, but does not show the other side torn apart. Any idea if there are 4 anodes, 2 on each side, or just 2 on one side...?

Also, I'm not crystal clear on what I would replace (part #s) with regard to the thermostat. I know you said to open it up and looks for signs of corrosion, but I typically go the route of just spending the money and changing out the parts when I have it torn down anyway. That, and I would hate to have it torn apart in the driveway for days on end while I wait for the parts later on.

Thanks!
 
Finally got the parts and the time to get this done. Went pretty smooth I must say, better than I expected. only two bolts, on the lower rubber mounts for the extension case, gave me any trouble. PB Blaster and the micro torch made short work of those. All spark plugs came out like butter, after a 24 hour soak in the PB, and none showed signs of corrosion. 9 hours start to finish, saved myself a TON of money! Thanks to all for the help!
 
Glad to hear that it all worked. Yep, you probably save yourself at least $1,000. What was the state of corrosion in the exhaust pipes? What was the state of the anodes?
 
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