Joe Reeves Challenge to troubleshoot my 1989 175 GT engine!

I am asking for help getting my old/new boat motor working as best it can. I have read many posts by many members, and feel Joe knows this stuff inside and out.

Here is my story:

I just bought 1989 Ranger 360v with a 1989 Johnson 175GT. Boat is in good shape, and motor started immediately when demonstrated by seller. This was done in my driveway with the water muffs on, and although I would have loved to test the rig in water, it was simply not practical, and I bought the boat anyway. The next day it was very hard starting.

We took it to a small lake to test things out, as we knew there were some electrical issues because most gauges didn't work and the wiring had been modified over the years.

After one hour of trying to start the engine, we finally succeeded. The boat ran GREAT! Idled nice, accelerated well, very fast, and started instantly every time when warm. I was grinning from ear to ear.

UNFORTUNATLY, ALL SOUTH FROM THERE.

Here are the facts as I know them now.

Compression: 95-100 in all cylinders, except one, which has 80.

VRO: I have disconnected the VRO and removed and plugged. Now running premix at 50:1 (after running the boat for two hours at 30-40 mph, no oil being used from tank)

There is leaking fuel from the Primer Solenoid from red lever. This is cracked, and I can’t find the part number for the one with the schrader valve. If someone knows where I can order one, please let me know. The valve is working fine, and after the bulb is pumped up and the key is on, pressing the key immediately shots fuel from the hose. (I only tested the one to the top carb)

The only way I can start this engine when cold is, 1) by luck, 2) using starting fluid, 3) switching the lever from auto to manual, then back to auto after engine starts.

The reason I am asking for Joe’s help is, I thought sticking with one set of methods, and one clearly knowledgeable individual, might prove to be a good exercise for not only myself, but others who might have similar problems.

Although there are other problems, I will wait until Joe ask me questions before I mention those.

If Joe is reading this, the gauntlet has been thrown down. I promise I will do whatever you instruct me to, in the exact manner you ask me to. I will not complain or argue, but I may ask questions so that I can understand better. The one thing I won't do is take it to a mechanic, as the whole purpose for me is to learn everything I can about the engine.

I want to go from whatever I have now, to a perfectly running engine that starts and runs great. Dependable and trustworthy, just like Joe. (that was just to butter him up)

Thanks, and I sure hope Joe responds.

Engine is hard starting..... Exactly what is your cold engine starting procedure?

Proper procedure: Pump fuel primer bulb up hard, apply a slight bit of throttle to take the carburetors off of the dead idle setting, turn the key to the START position and push and hold the key in to activate the primer solenoid, release the key to the RUN position when the engine fires and starts... temporarily pushing the key in if needed to supply extra fuel until the engine warms up.

If fuel is leaking from the RED lever portion of the primer solenoid, it is probably just a flawed O Ring, readily available at dealerships.

Compression.... You merely state in generalities what the compression is. What is the PSI compression of all the individual cylinders? If you indeed have a psi difference of 20 psi (80-100) between the highest and lowest reading, you should remove the cylinder head to inspect the head gasket, sealing surfaces, piston condition, etc. A 20 psi difference spells trouble and will only get worse if ignored.

Great Joe! Glad you are on board here.

Starting with exact compression.

Port psi Starboard psi
90 -----------96
80 -----------98
100 ---------100

I have also squirted a little oil in the cylinder with the 80 psi reading, and it went up to 88 psi. I assume this means rings might be the problem.

As far as starting procedure, I have tried as you suggested many times, but anytime I have used the primer solenoid while cranking the engine, it has never even fired once. I suspected that the leaking lever was maybe causing some problem.

However, if that lever is switched to manual, I get a small trickle of fuel leaking, then when I switch back to auto, the engine immediately fires. Kind of like a vapor lock acts on other engines. (I don't mean it is a vapor lock, it just acts similar)

Since my first post, I checked the spark on one plug wire. It was nowhere near the 7/16ths, but I could get a spark when the gap was at 1/10”. I just checked on one wire though.

Awaiting guidance.

Turning the RED lever to manual temporarily allows fuel to flow thru the small hoses to the intake manifold which in essence primes the cylinders. That sounds like the solenoid isn't energizing via the key being pushed in.

The spark is to be tested with all the spark plugs removed in order to obtain the highest cranking speed rpm. A string blue snapping spark jumping that 7/16" gap is a must!

Best to remove that port cylinder head to find out what is causing that 20 psi compression drop.

When testing spark, all plugs are removed, so I guess we already know we have a problem with spark. So how should I proceed with the spark situation?

From my first post:
"There is leaking fuel from the Primer Solenoid from red lever. This is cracked, and I can’t find the part number for the one with the schrader valve. If someone knows where I can order one, please let me know. The valve is working fine, and after the bulb is pumped up and the key is on, pressing the key immediately shots fuel from the hose. (I only tested the one to the top carb)"

As stated above, I am pretty sure the solenoid is working fine (with the exception of the cracked lever/ bad o-ring), although maybe the other lines are blocked in some way.

Compression test done cold. Starter fluid only used one time when I was in the middle of the lake and could not get the engine started. I just bought some seafoam, but I am only going to use it if I decide to decarb the engine. For now, not doing anything until it seems to be the next logical step.

Ok Joe, After thinking about the low spark condition, I realised that I might not have had enough in my battery to produce the right amount of spark. So I charged the battery all night and did a complete spark test this morning.

Results: All three port plug wires fire at the required 7/16" and the spark is very crisp. None of the starboard wires fired at all? Not at even 50 thousands of in inch. So that must give you some real clue as to what my problem might be.

Awaiting next suggestion.

crashkaloop said:

I charged the battery all night and did a complete spark test this morning. Results: All three port plug wires fire at the required 7/16" and the spark is very crisp. None of the starboard wires fired at all? Not at even 50 thousands of in inch. So that must give you some real clue as to what my problem might be.

Click to expand...

Assuming that the engine is cranking over at least 300 rpm... needed in order to have the stator energize the powerpack.

Good spark on the port bank... no spark on the starboard bank......

That engine has only one powerpack so either half of the powerpack has failed, OR three of the timing sensors in the timer base have failed. Either one is possible but neither one is likely. Extremely unlikely to have three coils fail.

The timing sensors can be checked with a ohm meter for the proper reading listed in a manual.

The coils can be tested by temporarily rerouting the firing orange primary wires from the port bank coils to the starboard bank coils.

Check all of the ignition rubber plug connectors. The pins/sockets have been known to back out resulting in poor connections. Also the wires attached to the pins/sockets have been know to break away from the wires but stay in the rubber plug because of friction, obviously resulting in weak, erratic, or no ignition/spark.

Is this looking more and more like the Power Pack? I mean the engine is cranking like a bat outa h__l, and the port side is getting great spark. Doesn't this point to the likelihood of the power pack being bad? I think there is no chance of three of anything going bad on only one side and it has to be something that affects one bank or the other? Is there any way that I can test the power pack, or is it just to complicated?

Thanks

All of the rubber, boots and connectors seem to be good and aligned, I checked them the best I could. I am about to try testing the coils as you suggested. I can not find anything about how to test the timing sensors, in fact, I don't even know what they are? I just thought you set the timing at the flywheel.

Can you point me to where I might find the procedure for testing the timing sensors?

Thanks

Your engine does have just one powerpack doesn't it?

In the rubber pin/socket plug leading from the timer base, (drawing on memory which might be flawed), there would be a white wire and three different colored wires. The white wire being common... the colored wires being the timing sensors. The ohm reading would be taken between the common wire and the colored wires, one by one of which the readings should all be the same or extremely close.

I do not recall what the actual ohm reading would be. It would state that in a manual. Perhaps another member will jump in here with that info.... 17.5 ohms sticks in my mind but I'm not sure

The flywheel has a small circular magnet that surrounds the crankshaft taper of the flywheel consisting of a North and South pole. As thus small magnet passes the timing sensors, the sensor emits 1-1/2v to an electronic SCR switch to fire a specific coil. This has nothing to do with the engines idle or full spark advance timing which is set at the flywheel.

Did you look closely at the "pins" and "sockets" within those rubber plugs to make sure that none of them have been pushed back, creating a faulty connection?

Assuming that your engine does have but one powerpack.... it should have only one "Black/Yellow" kill circuit wire leading to it from the engine's wiring harness... check that. Should there be two (2) black/yellow wires at the pack, disconnect them temporarily and check the spark again.

The Loop Charged engines have a shift cutout switch attached to the shift linkage under the carburetor area on the starboard side that cuts the ignition to the starboard bank when shifting out of gear BUT the 1989 175hp model does not incorporate that setup... first thing that crossed my mind (no starboard bank ignition = sticking shift switch) BUT this doesn't apply to a crossflow V6 engine.

joereeves said:

Your engine does have just one powerpack doesn't it?

Correct Joe. Only one.

In the rubber pin/socket plug leading from the timer base, (drawing on memory which might be flawed), there would be a white wire and three different colored wires. The white wire being common... the colored wires being the timing sensors. The ohm reading would be taken between the common wire and the colored wires, one by one of which the readings should all be the same or extremely close.

Where do these wires come from or lead to? If they are connected to a metal ring sort of thing that is right below the flywheel, there are actually two of them. A group of 4 wires coming from the port side with blu/pur/grn/wht, and another coming from the starboard side with blu/pur/grn/ blk-wht. Is one of these the wires you are referring to?

I do not recall what the actual ohm reading would be. It would state that in a manual. Perhaps another member will jump in here with that info.... 17.5 ohms sticks in my mind but I'm not sure

The flywheel has a small circular magnet that surrounds the crankshaft taper of the flywheel consisting of a North and South pole. As thus small magnet passes the timing sensors, the sensor emits 1-1/2v to an electronic SCR switch to fire a specific coil. This has nothing to do with the engines idle or full spark advance timing which is set at the flywheel.

Did you look closely at the "pins" and "sockets" within those rubber plugs to make sure that none of them have been pushed back, creating a faulty connection?

They all looked fine to me, but some looked oily or dirty and I used a Q-tip to clean what I could.

Assuming that your engine does have but one powerpack.... it should have only one "Black/Yellow" kill circuit wire leading to it from the engine's wiring harness... check that. Should there be two (2) black/yellow wires at the pack, disconnect them temporarily and check the spark again.

I can't seem to find a disconnect point at the Power Pack. But I do have two yel/blk at the ignition switch which I disconnected, but it made no difference. I still had no spark on the starboard side.

The Loop Charged engines have a shift cutout switch attached to the shift linkage under the carburetor area on the starboard side that cuts the ignition to the starboard bank when shifting out of gear BUT the 1989 175hp model does not incorporate that setup... first thing that crossed my mind (no starboard bank ignition = sticking shift switch) BUT this doesn't apply to a crossflow V6 engine.

Click to expand...

I have no wires anywhere near the shift lever mechanism. But I have been wondering if I have a cross-flow or looper? I keep seeing those mentioned in some posts, but I have no idea what either of them are. Which do I have?

Waiting for your comments, Thanks!

Are all the magnets still in place on the flywheel?

If the magnets are about 4"x 3/8" curved pieces right under the flywheel, then there are 6 of them. So I assume that is correct. Well, at least there are no gaps where something seems to be missing.

You've got a crossflow. The way the fuel - air mixture is brought into the cylinder is the difference between a looper and a cross flow (looper = loop charged, cross flow = cross flow induction). Different engine blocks, intake manifold, carbs, etc.

If you have three aluminum carburetors in plain view... the engine is a crossflow.

You asked "Where do these wires come from or lead to? If they are connected to a metal ring sort of thing that is right below the flywheel, there are actually two of them. A group of 4 wires coming from the port side with blu/pur/grn/wht, and another coming from the starboard side with blu/pur/grn/ blk-wht. Is one of these the wires you are referring to?"

The large ring under the flywheel is the stator (a non movable object)... the beginning of the battery charging system and also of the ignition system. The timer base sits just inside the stator... this moves fro the retarded to the full spark advance position as you advance the throttle. Yes, those are the wire I speak of.

Thanks Joe,

As you requested, I have tested those and get no continuity between the white, and all other colors in that connector. No reading at all. It just looks open. Am I supposed to turn the motor over while testing them, because I didn't?

crashkaloop said:

Thanks Joe, As you requested, I have tested those and get no continuity between the white, and all other colors in that connector. No reading at all. It just looks open. Am I supposed to turn the motor over while testing them, because I didn't?

Click to expand...

No, you don't want the engine running... you're simply testing, looking for a ohm reading.

What about testing the other side for the ohm readings... best to check both sides to compare. If you get no ohm readings on the side that has spark, you're doing something wrong as obviously that side is operational.

I didn't mean to have the engine running, I just meant to turn it over with the plugs out to get a reading. But I didn't attempt to do that at all, as I did exactly as you instructed.

The other plug has exactly the same colors except there is no white, but it has a blk/wht. So I used that.
Also no reading at all?

My meter is working, but I get no reading on any of the leads?

Assuming that the wht on one plug, and the blk/wht is the common on the other plug, I tested between those two and got continuity. I just did that to see what would happen.

So I am baffled as to why I am not getting any reading?

I will try another meter tomorrow, as 17.5 ohms is pretty small for a meter that only goes down to 200 ohms.

crashkaloop said:

If the magnets are about 4"x 3/8" curved pieces right under the flywheel, then there are 6 of them. So I assume that is correct. Well, at least there are no gaps where something seems to be missing.

Click to expand...

Are any lose? Are they evenly spaced?

Just checked, and they are all tight when I try to wiggle them, but it's a pretty small space to get in to. They all seem evenly spaced with about 3/8"-1/2" between them.

crashkaloop said:

I didn't mean to have the engine running, I just meant to turn it over with the plugs out to get a reading. But I didn't attempt to do that at all. The other plug has exactly the same colors except there is no white, but it has a blk/wht. So I used that.Also no reading at all?

Click to expand...

No need to turn the engine over. The ohm test you're doing could be done on the workbench.

The common wire is "white" on one bank and "black/white" on the other as you suspect.

I don't understand why you're not getting a reading unless as you suspect... a meter problem. Personally I don't care for the digital meters. I prefer the old analog (needle) type meters

I agree Joe. I have an analog meter, and I will use that this morning. Should have results soon.

Using an analog meter, I finally have some data. Because of my meters scale, (very small), I can't tell if the reading is 2 ohms, 20 ohms, or 200 ohms.

Results:
Wht to Blu = 1.9
Wht to Pur = 0
Wht to Grn = 0

Wht/Blk to Blu = 2.5
Wht/Blk to Pur = 0
Wht/Blk to Grn = 2.5

This confuses me, because I was expecting all on one plug to be good or bad, and the opposite on the other plug. I guess I associated one plug with the port bank, and the other plug with the starboard side. The results do show that three have continuity and 3 don't, so I guess if they are dispersed because of the firing sequence, this could be correct?

One plug is the port bank... the other plug the starboard bank. I think the "white" common wire plug is the port side but not certain.

One plug does not ever pertain to both banks.

From what you've said... good spark on the starboard bank, and no spark on the port bank, if it pertained to a timer base sensor problem, you should have good readings on one plug and no readings on the other.

I'm wondering if you might simply have a ignition wiring ground problem somewhere.

I don't have a 1989 service manual anymore but my other books go up to 1986 and they all give the same sensor readings of 17 ohms +/- 5 ohms. I don't understand the readings you're getting.

From what you've said... good spark on the starboard bank, and no spark on the port bank, if it pertained to a timer base sensor problem, you should have good readings on one plug and no readings on the other.

Its actually the other way around, good spark port, no spark starboard.

I'm wondering if you might simply have a ignition wiring ground problem somewhere.

I am now also? Regardless if my meter is giving the right ohms readings, since I have wires on both plugs that work or don't, why is the spark on the port bank working great? This is all factory wiring, and it should read one side good, and the other bad. What do you suggest I check Joe?

I don't have a 1989 service manual anymore but my other books go up to 1986 and they all give the same sensor readings of 17 ohms +/- 5 ohms. I don't understand the readings you're getting.

My readings could be 20-25 ohms, and this would be a little closer to the specs above.

Look at wire pairs running TO the pack FROM the stator. The pairs I am interested in are the brown pairs. Do you have one brown pair, or two? If one, never mind this post. If two pairs of brown wires, then one of the pairs is probably not generating voltage. I.e. open winding. Use ohmmeter on both pairs of brown wires (if exist) and verify if open or if both read the same.

YES, it appears that you do have two pairs of brown wires. Voltage while cranking on those wires should be >150v and the resistance should be about 1000 ohms.

There appear to be two sets. Each has one brn and one brn/yel. They both have 950 ohms on them. I hope these were the right wires.

ooops Just to clarify, I was measuring from the stator, not the pack. If that was wrong, please let me know.

Looking at those colors I may have them messed up a little. Looking at the schematic, it appears as though the wires may be 1**(brn)-(brn/yel), 2**(brn/wht)-(brn/blk). Its hard for me to see the exact colors. However, I do think I had the right wires as they were bundled together and seem to come from the right spots on the stator.