Logo
FULL SITE MENU

New noise / Honda 225 with video

B

bigfoot3

Contributing Member
Hi
I have twin 2006 Honda 225s.. about 850 hours on them..They both sounded the same until Friday. Starboard engine developed a knocking or ticking noise. Hard to describe so I posted a video of it on my website. Look at
Video clip of engines
there are 3 short video clips.. the engine with the noise at idle, the second video is the same engine revved up a little, and for comparison the third video is the other engine without that noise.

I am not sure if I hit something - there is a lot of junk in the water still from hurricane Sandy and I made a 40 miles trip that day. It has full power, starts easily. My last fill up of gas was about 3 weeks ago. I went through about 100 gallons since then (tanks are 1/2 full.. separate tank for each engine)

Any ideas what it could be and how expensive a problem this is?

thanks
Al
 
Sounds like your lower unit. Try putting it in gear at idle and see if the noise changes any. Also try changing the lower unit oil and see if there are metal filings (chunks even) on the drain magnet and if the oil looks bad etc.
 
Strange you say that. Last year, there were metal filings on the drain plug. The mechanic took it apart and said a gear tooth was broken off, among other things, and that the entire lower unit needed to be replaced. They replaced it. I have about 100 hours on this one. Is it possible the same thing happened again?
 
bigfoot3 said:
Strange you say that. Last year, there were metal filings on the drain plug. The mechanic took it apart and said a gear tooth was broken off, among other things, and that the entire lower unit needed to be replaced. They replaced it. I have about 100 hours on this one. Is it possible the same thing happened again?
Click to expand...

Could be, but seems less likely on a new lower. The other thing that I can think of that might make that noise is a bad little or big end bearing. Normally goes away once you get the revs up, but might not I guess. Have you ever done the check where you put a dowel in through the plug hole and push down on each piston just after that piston goes past TDC? Piston should not move when you push, if it moves even a little that is the play in your bearing(s).
 
I could not play the original posted sounds either. I did hear the second post while in idle. Raises several questions -
1. Was that recorded while the engine was in gear?
2. Does the sound change when in gear or out of gear?
3. Have you tried a stethescope (or long screwdriver) to try to isolate the location of the noise?
4. How does the noise change when you increase rpm?

You need to isolate the source of the noise. If I were back in my youth working on a car engine, my first suspicion would center on the timing belt and tension pully. But that is just a guess without isolating the source of the noise.
 
Ok, looked at both the last vids. The first thing I would do if it were me is check out the spark plugs. Make sure that they are all tight and seated properly. The sound seems more like a knock at idle but more like an exhaust leak up off of idle. Check the plugs and then do what chawk_man says and get some sort of stethoscope (screwdriver-broom handle-heater hose) and get as close to the noise as you can. If you find it is close to an exhaust port, then it may have blown a gasket or cracked a manifold. If it is lower down then the the little trick for checking rod bearings and wrist pins aliboy put out might come in handy here.
Good luck.
 
I took it to my mechanic today. They checked the compression and 1 cylinder was lower than all of the others. They are going to open it up tomorrow and see what is wrong. He is thinking a valve problem
thanks for the tips.
 
chawk_man said:
Let us know what they find.
Click to expand...

Bad news...
entire lower unit was destroyed.. a gear tooth broke off again, and it destroyed the housing.

I just had a new one installed 18 months ago. It had a 1 year warranty.
The good news was the compression turned out to be ok.. it was within the allowed variance..

I had no luck with these engines.
 
Wow, I was WAY off! So much for old ears and You Tube video sound. Sorry to hear that this happened to you. Now it is "failure analysis" time. I have been around rental outboards for several years now and, while I've seen MANY lower end failures and have replace a BUNCH because they were beyond rebuild, I have never run across one that was imploded due to a broken gear tooth being the root cause.

The old Native American words for Rental Outboards are ROCK BEATERS or SHORE POUNDERS or GRAVEL DIGGERS as they spend more time running aground than anything else. So, you would think I would have encountered a failure like this.

What does your mechanic say? If it's just a shrug and a raised eyebrow along with an extended hand for the bill payment, it might be time to find a friendly wrench who might give you some tips on what to do to prevent this.

At the very beginning of this thread I seem to recall you mentioning hitting something. Do you (or your mechanic) think that is what happened? Do you think that is what happened to the one before?

Just curious
 
That's what it sounded like unfortunately. We have put over 3000hrs on 3 x 175/225's (175 is same engine) in our self drive boats (Rock Beaters :)) and never had anything that looked like a lower unit problem. Only 'regular' issues we have had have been the O2 sensors. We did have some corrosion issues due partly to some flushing difficulties at around 1000hrs on one boat, but Honda just forked out for new power heads so I haven't too many bad things to say other than be sure to flush the engine well and after each use.
If you have issues with hitting bottom occasionally, have you thought about moving to an alloy prop? They do take a bit more of the shock out of the lower unit than a stainless one.
 
aliboy said:
That's what it sounded like unfortunately. We have put over 3000hrs on 3 x 175/225's (175 is same engine) in our self drive boats (Rock Beaters :)) and never had anything that looked like a lower unit problem. Only 'regular' issues we have had have been the O2 sensors. We did have some corrosion issues due partly to some flushing difficulties at around 1000hrs on one boat, but Honda just forked out for new power heads so I haven't too many bad things to say other than be sure to flush the engine well and after each use.
If you have issues with hitting bottom occasionally, have you thought about moving to an alloy prop? They do take a bit more of the shock out of the lower unit than a stainless one.
Click to expand...

I never hit bottom with these engines.. when I said I hit something, there is a lot of junk in our waters - still from hurricane sandy - lots of wood - mostly docks that were ripped apart. I remember a few bumps.. could hitting a block of wood sheer off a gear tooth.. and if so, could something like that be covered under insurance?

I used to always flush the engine after use but my marina still doesn't have water or electricity so I can't flush it.
 
Seems like if you hit something that hard to break a tooth, it would show as a major nick in the prop. Normally, the skeg is the first thing to hit, and if it is big enough, it will kick the engine up. On the 225, it is possible for the skeg to miss a floating obstruction, and hit it directly with the prop. But again, that should show up on the prop. If your prop does not show a hit, then it is likely a manufacturing fault. There are several lower unit re-builders that advertise in the fishing and boating magazines. If I recall correctly, you can get a rebuilt lower unit for the 225 in the $1200 range. You may want to do a search.
 
bigfoot3 said:
I never hit bottom with these engines.. when I said I hit something, there is a lot of junk in our waters - still from hurricane sandy - lots of wood - mostly docks that were ripped apart. I remember a few bumps.. could hitting a block of wood sheer off a gear tooth.. and if so, could something like that be covered under insurance?

I used to always flush the engine after use but my marina still doesn't have water or electricity so I can't flush it.
Click to expand...

If you had testimony/evidence from the shop to say that it was due to a prop strike I would try the insurance. Without that it would be a pretty good insurer who would cover it, but given the lack of age it might be worth asking about. We have seen plenty of dinged props without breaking gears, so I am surprised if you have a blown gear with no damage on the prop. Were the seals intact and the oil in the lower uncontaminated? One really quick killer of lowers is fishing line etc wrapping in front of the prop and damaging the prop shaft seals. Can happen to a brand new lower 5 minutes after you start using it.

Regarding the flushing, I would really recommend that you work out some way to do this even if it is difficult. We keep lots of boats in the water and only flush them every so often. Some of these engines have done ~3000hrs over 10 years and still have good internals. Unfortunately with the 175's we have (same block as the 225) one had corrosion blow a pin hole through the block at just over 1000hrs. When the 2nd one was inspected it was found to be close to holing as well. Even though they were 1000hrs and just under 5 years old Honda replaced both power heads. It was the best and most honest problem response I have had from any of the manufacturers we have used. We are gradually going to change out our remaining F series Yamahas for Hondas based on Yamahas complete lack of support for the various problems in their engines and Hondas amazing response by comparison. Anyway, the frank discussion was that these 225 blocks need to be flushed properly as there is a part of the block where salt will accumulate if not flushed. In our case the engine setup and boat location had made this a little difficult (like you I guess), but the reality was that they are more susceptible to this corrosion issue than many other engines. I really like these engines as with proper care they seem to run strong for ever, but we have made sure that we can flush them better now.
 
I talked to the insurance people and they will send an adjuster to take a look at it. I do not remember wrapping fishing line around the prop ever. The mechanic said it looks like the prop is dinged up. I didn't see it yet.
They should have water and power at my marina by the time I get the boat back..
The good news is the insurance company said there is no depreciation because the part was only 1 1/2 years old. I had proof a new lower unit was installed at that time. Only a $700 deductible :(
 
Well, I guess that is somewhat good news. I think several of us would be interested in how your insurance company handles this. Please let us know.
 
chawk_man said:
Well, I guess that is somewhat good news. I think several of us would be interested in how your insurance company handles this. Please let us know.
Click to expand...

The insurance company (Sea Insure) approved the claim. This was the nicest experiance I ever had with an insurance company. I called them Friday and they were off saturday and sunday but approved it today! It will cost me about $700 instead of $5,000. And they were very nice about it.
 
That is a damn good response - about as good of an outcome as you could hope for.

Aliboy - I have found that flushing my 225 engines was a serious pain, especially with my set-up where I have the engine mounted on a 30" Armstrong motor extension. My work-around was to install a T connection in the flushing hose, connect that to an automotive water hose that I run to the top back of my transom with just enough slack to accommodate the max turning radius of the motor. Then on the other end I added a quick disconnect with a half-turn on-off valve for a garden hose. That makes it easy to just plug in the garden hose with a mating quick-disconnect, turn the valve open, and flush which I'm cleaning up the boat. See picture below.
Flush extender.jpg
 
When I got my worldcat, it was a pain in the neck to flush so I didn't do it that often.. (I have a bad back - which is why I got the cat!).. then I hooked up a hose like you did and it works great. (You can see it in that video above) Now I flush it with no bending and do it a lot more often (except my marina doesn't have water now - devastated after Sandy - should have it real soon).
 
Back
Top