convert to standard rotation?

Hey guys a quick question. what would be involved in putting a standard rotation engine in place of my reverse rotation on the STBD side? I have a paragon V drive. A guy at the marina told me to just flip the pump Would I still need a new prop?

Im just curious because I like the idea of two identical engines. and being able to keep a long block built and ready in my garage in case I damage one during fishing season (decrease down time)

as always, any help is appreciated.

Will

You may have offset rudders...

Tahoerover said:

You may have offset rudders...

Click to expand...

I think that Will is asking if he can use a Std. LH rotation engine on his Starboard side, while reversing his transmission.


Will, I believe that you'll first want to find out if you model Paragon V-drive transmission is "reversing' capable.
That's perhaps the more important question at this point.

If so, then I suppose that this could be done.
You'll end up with the same propeller shaft and prop rotation, so there should be no issues with the rudder off-set.



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Rick, that is exactly my question! I have a paragon pv300. When I had the engine out last time I did notice that the pump had arrows for either direction but I will contact a couple marine transmission guys and see what they say.

Thanks, will

buick430 said:

When I had the engine out last time I did notice that the pump had arrows for either direction but I will contact a couple marine transmission guys and see what they say.

Click to expand...

Will, there's your answer right there!

RicardoMarine said:

I think that Will is asking if he can use a Std. LH rotation engine on his Starboard side, while reversing his transmission.


Will, I believe that you'll first want to find out if you model Paragon V-drive transmission is "reversing' capable.
That's perhaps the more important question at this point.

If so, then I suppose that this could be done.
You'll end up with the same propeller shaft and prop rotation, so there should be no issues with the rudder off-set.



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Click to expand...

The paragon is reversible but why bother if he has offset rudders.

I have the BW trans with reversing pumps. They only turn in the direction of the motor that is hooked up to it. if the pump is in the wrong direction oil will not pump even though the trans is turning in the direction of the motor. The newer boats have a right turning trans an a left turning trans. The engines turn in one direction.
Bob

kimcrwbr1 said:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-RA..._Accessories_Gear&hash=item35bdb0f78e&vxp=mtr For the pump you need to turn it 180 degrees and put new impeller/s in depending if its a two or four port pump.

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Kim, you are correct. If this was to work for Will, he'd also need to reverse the direction of his sea water pump by rotating the pump body 180*, and making sure that the lead-in on the impeller(s) is also correct.

I believe that Will is first asking about his Paragon pv300 transmision.... in which case he needs to reverse the oil pump direction for a Standard LH Rotation engine.
If I'm understanding Bob, the prop shaft rotation remains the same as it was before, therefor the rudder off-set should not be affected. The prop shaft, prop and rudder won't know the difference, unless Will tells them. The engine mounts and stringers will feel the torque difference, so there's no hiding this from them.


However, I think that there's wrench in the gears here......... I just read the Paragon data sheet and the notation.

Note: R or L suffix on model designation refers to engine output rotation.
All models provide same output as engine rotation except * above. Models PLV100L, PLV150L, PLV200L, PLV250L provide output opposite to engine rotation.

Since the PV300 is NOT listed as "opposite to engine rotation", the PV300 is NOT designed to use a Std LH engine, yet turn the propeller shaft in a RH direction.
IOW, the PV 300 will go LH or RH engine, but the prop shaft follows engine rotation.
If this is the case, Will's Starboard engine needs to remain Reverse RH rotation.

Will, if your goal is to have a spare engine ready to go, I think that this leaves you with once choice only:
Prep the block, heads, pistons, rods, crank, etc, but do not yet assemble it.

If you should end up needing a Port side engine, then you'd assemble it using LH protocol. (i.e., std camshaft, wrist pin off-set, main seals, etc.)
If you should end up needing a Stbd side engine, then you'd assemble it using RH protocol.

Makes sense?




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So the input rotation changes , but the output stays the same? How?

Tahoerover said:

So the input rotation changes , but the output stays the same? How?

Click to expand...

Correct!
Some I/B Marine transmissions are reversing capable. Some are reverse engine rotation only.
For LH and RH rotation engines this can be done, and is why the oil pump direction must also be changed.

For example..... Borg-Warner's integral V-Drive marine transmission.
Specs list:
For twin-screw applications, opposite propeller rotation can be provided for two engines of "like rotation" through the use of gear and chain drive transmissions.

I think this is what Bob was refering to earlier about the newer drives.


This Masson Marine transmission is also reverse FWD power capable.
Specs list:
All our gearboxes are symmetric with respect to the direction of rotation; the output shaft may run in engine-wise direction or in counter-engine-wise direction in the "ahead mode" of the ship.






IOW, this same model transmission could be used Port side or Stbd side with both engines being Standard LH rotation, yet they could swing either a RH or LH prop.

Whereas the PV300 is NOT listed as "opposite to engine rotation", so it's NOT designed to use a Std LH engine, yet turn the propeller shaft in a RH direction.

So apparently Will's Starboard engine needs to remain Reverse RH rotation in order to maintain a RH prop rotation.


At least that's how I'm understanding this.


BTW, Volvo Penta's MS-3 and MS-4 I/B transmissions do something very similar.
Volvo Penta does not use a REV RH Rotation engine in either the I/B or I/O applications.
The MS series transmission reverses for a FWD gear as to spin a Stbd side propeller in a RH rotation.
Port side would then spin a LH propeller (same as Std LH engine rotation).

They use the same engine and the same transmission for either side.


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There is so much erroneous information in this thread, it has become dysfunctional.

Tahoerover said:

There is so much erroneous information in this thread, it has become dysfunctional.

Click to expand...

And your Passive/Aggressive comment is not dysfunctional???

Look, we're having a gentlemanly conversation here as though we are sitting down together having a beer, or a having a cup of coffee.
If you have a solution, or an explanation for Will, why not share them, rather than making a negative comment like the one you just posted?
IOW, why not lend some help, rather than giving non-productive criticism!

In fact, I'll make this a challenge for you!
Explain to Will just what he's up against, what will work, and what will not work.


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Non productive? Your the king of non productive spew. You can't stay on track and work the the OP's question. You post paragraph after paragraph that has nothing with the original question.

Okay, I understand that I would need to rotate my sea water pump 180. The serial numbers appear to be the same on the gears port and stbd. so my Idea was to eventually WHEN the engine needs replacing, to replace it with a standard rotation engine. My idea was that I would need to rotate the transmission pump and get a new identical prop as my port side. Is this not how it works?

Thanks, will

Will, my apologies for the disruption by Tahoerover. Some people would rather stir the pot, than to actually offer help.
(notice that he passed on my challenge.)

buick430 said:

.......... what would be involved in putting a standard rotation engine in place of my reverse rotation on the STBD side? I have a paragon V drive. A guy at the marina told me to just flip the pump. Would I still need a new prop?

Click to expand...

Will, I believe that your question left this somewhat open to interpretation..... at least on my behalf, but I may have misunderstood you.
I made the assumption that you wanted to maintain the same Stbd side CW propeller rotation by reversing the transmission output direction from that of a standard LH engine.
The transmission that I believe you were hoping for, would have not only been reverse input/output rotation capable, but also capable of "opposite to engine rotation", such as the Masson Marine transmission and some of the V-drive transmissions (for example).
This type of transmission solves your issue.


Will, let's recap this, and see if I'm understanding you.

Port side existing:
Standard LH rotation engine turning CCW when viewed from the flywheel.
Prop is also turning CCW while viewed facing the stern.
Rubber is offset for CCW propeller.
Sea water pump is correct for this rotation as well as the transmission oil pump.


Stbd side existing:
Reverse RH rotation engine turning CW when viewed from the flywheel.
Prop is also turning CW while viewed facing the stern.
Rubber is offset for CW propeller.
Sea water pump is correct for this rotation as well as the transmission oil pump.

Proposal:
You'd like to build up a spare Std LH rotation engine that could be used for the Stbd side (if need be), if the transmission is "oposite of engine rotation" capable.

Isn't this the actual question?
Or are you willing to swing a LH (CCW) prop on the Stbd side, and deal with the offset rudder?

We know that the transmission oil pump can be reversed for either LH or RH engine rotation.
We know that the sea water pump can be reversed.
However, the Paragon information lists the PV 300 as not being "oposite of engine rotation" capable.

This would mean that a Standard LH engine (installed in the Stbd side), would need to turn a CCW direction propeller.... (same as Port side).
If your Stbd side rudder is offset to accommodate a CW propeller rotation, a Stbd side CCW propeller may be problematic for you.
Add to this that both props would now turn CCW, so there may be a concern as to what and how would this affect hull performance, low speed docking, etc?
Unless I'm clear out in left field here....., to do what you propose, you'd need a transmission that is "oposite of engine rotation" capable.


If the PV 300 transmission will not work for this, I still think that your best bet would be to have all of the new "spare" engine components ready to go, but not yet assembled. Then you'd build this engine in either a RH or a LH version, as required at the time.


Does that make sense?



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Rick, I think you got it. My rudders are not offset (rudder post IS centered on prop shaft on my boat). So my plan was to simply get a new prop and flip the tranny pump. I wasn't aware that this would change the handling of my boat.

buick430 said:

Rick, I think you got it. My rudders are not offset (rudder post IS centered on prop shaft on my boat). So my plan was to simply get a new prop and flip the tranny pump. I wasn't aware that this would change the handling of my boat.

Click to expand...

Will, having two LH driven propellers (on a boat that was OEM with LH/RH propellers) would no doubt change the performance and handling characteristics, and in particular while dock side maneuvering.
How much.... I don't know.


I still believe that your solution is simple:
Gather the parts, prep everything (short of LH/RH rotation specific parts), and have everything waiting and ready for final assembly.

The parts that would LH/RH specific, and to hold off on, would be the camshaft, piston fit onto connecting rods, and front/rear main seals.
(I don't recall whether the Chrysler pistons would be ambidextrous or not.... but the wrist pin offset is what prevents early assembly while not knowing which rotation the engine will be built)

Often there's as much time involved in gathering parts and machine work, as there is in assembly.
Actually, the assembly requires less time.




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kimcrwbr1 said:

When docking you can put one prop in reverse and one in fwd and the stern will walk in one direction or the other depending on prop rotation. It sounds like the reduction gear is reversable if so keep the reverse spinning props and play with it out on the water and you will see how it can help docking. You can pull in at an angle and reverse the screws and spin the stern right into the dock.

Click to expand...

Kim, under any other circumstances, I'd completely agree with you. But Will is wanting to reserve the option of a Standard LH Rotation engine on the Stbd side where he currently has a Reverse RH Rotation engine.

The problem is........ according to Paragon, Will's PV 300 transmission is NOT "oposite of engine rotation" capable.


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