Honda BF130 dying before running

I'm having problems again with my honda bf130. I just changed out the low pressure fuel pump a few months ago and the engine was running great, I made a 120 mile run with no problems before this happened. I filled up the tank and stored the boat for about 3 weeks or so, today when I put it in the water and tried to start it, the motor will turn over and run for about 3 seconds consistantly but will not run after that.

The fuel primer bulb is hard
There is no water in the fuel/water external separator
When I pump the bulb when the engine fires up for those three seconds the bulb continues to be hard but even pumping the bulb will not keep the motor running. This is very different than when my low pressure fuel pump went out because then I'd pump it and it would run until I stopped pumping it and then it would die.

When I turn the ignition on it beeps twice and then when I click the key over to the final click the engine starts, again for only three seconds before dying.

I am thinking that it is either the high pressure fuel pump, the main relay or perhaps some fuses? Is there any place I should start looking first? I don't hear the high pressure pump running when I start the engine during those two beeps, is it fairly loud and obvious?

Thanks!

I think you are on the right track.

If you are not sure if you can hear the pump or not....take a screwdriver and hold the tip against the vapor separator and put your ear up to the handle. Have someone turn the key to on, and if it is working, you will hear it.

If it is not working, it could be the fuse, pump, or ecm or connections in between.

You can disconnect the wire going to the vapor separator and check for 2 seconds of 12v when the key is turned to on.

You can even connect 12v directly to the pump side of the wires with some jumpers and make it run that way. If it does not run with the correct polarity, reverse the wires and see if the pump will run backwards (it is a dc pump), that might unblock some junk that might be in it.

The ecm sends a ground to the main relay assy which operates a relay inside that sends the 12v to the pump.

If everything seems to be functioning the way it should...it might be your fuel. That is the last thing you did after it was running ok. Get a small portable tank or even just put you fuel line without the fitting into some good fresh fuel. Drain the vapor separator and flush the entire fuel system and give it another try. The 130 is very picky about its fuel.

Mike

Thanks so much for the info Mike, I had my wife click the key over one click (the last click before the engine turns over). With my ear to the vst I hear a "click" inside it but no whirr of a fuel pump. With the screwdriver to it I cannot hear anything as well, I'm guessing it should sound like the fuel pump in my honda car during the start up sequence where I hear the whirr during the first click of the key.

I tried checking for 12v at the fuel pump and couldn't get a reading so I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly. The reason I'm unsure if I'm reading it correctly is that I unplugged it and checked for 12v and didn't get power for 2 seconds when turning the key. But if I tried starting the engine without the connection plugged in it will not run for two seconds, you can hear the engine trying to turn over but it never gets power. I plugged it back in and once again the motor would start and run for two seconds.

When I turn the key, the engine beeps twice and then a green light is on until the engine dies and then there are no lights.

I drained the vst and it appeared clear, I also drained the sight bowl in the external fuel/water separator and that appeared okay too. I reprimed it with the bulb until the bulb got hard and it remains hard and I cannot pump it anymore. I drained the high pressure pump fuel filter and inspected the cartridge and it looked okay.

I checked the three fuses on the port side of the engine, the first is labeled 10A, and the other two 30A. All of the fuses seemed okay. Is that where the high pressure fuel pump is or is there another fuse I need to look for?

Would the engine turn over and run a few seconds and then die consistently with a dead high pressure pump?

The fuses are just to the left of the starter.

It is possible for a sick pump to cause your symptoms.

Just have to go through the checks.

I remind you to not forget the fuel possibility.



Mike

I guess you proved that it would not run with a dead pump when you disconnected it. Can you hear it running at all with the key switch to on? It might be getting something less than 12v at the pump.

The best way to tell for sure is to check the fuel pressure. My guess is you do not have a gauge with the proper connection. You could just remove the bolt in the cover of the high pressure fuel filter and put a rag under it. Fuel should shoot out of there a few inches during the two seconds. At least then you will know it is pumping pretty good. Just be careful to protect your eyes in case of splash.

If it is pumping good then check for codes.

Turn the key to off. On the port side of the engine, you will have to remove the plastic retangular cover. It is just above the fuses. There are 4 connectors to the right of the EMC. The bottom one, should be red. Remove the cover. There should be two wires going into the connector. Take a paper clip and short out the two wires by sticking the ends of the paper clip into the small holes in the connector.

Turn the key to on and see what the PGM panel light does (hopefully you have one). If it comes on and does not blink, there are no codes. If it blinks, count the long and short blinks and let me know the count. Four shorts for example = 4 A long = 10.

I am guessing the light will come on steady...but it is good to check to be sure.

Mike

No I can't hear the fuel pump running with the switch on at all and I have pretty good hearing so I'm thinking that's the main problem. I took the bolt off the high pressure filter and turned the key to the first click. No gas came out of the hole. I tried it several times and no gas ever came out of the hole. But when I turned the key to the second click when the engine turned over gas spurted out of the hole. I am guessing this means the low pressure pump is firing up okay but the high pressure pump is either dead or not getting power?

I shorted out the two wires like you said, when I turned the key to the first click and got the two beeps there were 3 short blinks that came on, then went dead then three short blinks again. I did not try to start the engine on the second click though.

The 3 indicates there was a faulty map sensor or something wrong with the connection. Most likely, it was disconnected at another time and the code was stored and it is ok. But to be sure, you should clear the code and check again.

To clear the code, turn the key to off. Insert the paper clip into the red connector. The rest depends on what kind of safety landyard/button you have. If you can push in the safety landyard button and stop the engine, then the following will apply.

Turn the key to on....within the next 20 seconds...push the button in and hold about .5 sec for five times. On the fifth time, hold the button and you should hear a couple of beeps. Turn the key off. The codes are erased and the ECM is reset. Turn the key switch back to on and check for any other codes.

Mike

You're right as usual Mike. I reset the ecu (on mine you have to pull the button out but at the same intervals as you mentioned). The panel light did not flash, it stayed red. I pulled the jumper out and plugged it back in, turned the key to the first click and did not hear the fuel pump. I turned it to the second click and the engine turned over and started running for the 3 seconds and then died. I tried it several times with the same effect.

I put the jumper back in and turned the key to the first click, the panel light remained red and steady with no flashes, I am guessing that this means there are no codes?

It is possible that the low pressure pump is pushing some fuel through. Once you get past the code issue....then you have to go back and double check voltage to the fuel pump.

If you are not getting voltage, you can test the pump by running 12v directly to its connector. You can use something like small jumper leads like this from Radio Shack http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062660 or you can make up something yourself.

Run the power directly to the pump's connector. There probably will be a spark, but the motor should run. If it does not, then you probably have a bad pump. I can not remember what the color for the positive lead is, but the negative is black.

You did check the 10 amp fuses, didn't you?

Mike

Ah ha now we are getting somewhere. I made a jumper and wired 12v from the starter to the high pressure pump, when I connected it the high pressure pump whirred like I'm guessing it is supposed to do, I definitely didn't hear that when I was clicking the key before.

So that means that the high pressure pump is probably okay? I am thinking that when I tested the 12v power going to the high pressure pump earlier and got no power that is my problem area. I am guessing now that means I have some sort of break in power from the key to the high pressure pump? Would the Main Relay cause this problem or should I look elsewhere?

I checked the 10A fuse as well as the two 30 A fuses and they were okay on the continuity test on the multimeter.

Once the key switch is on, the ECM sends a ground to the fuel pump relay (which is in the main relay module). The 12v for that relay is supplied from the 30 amp fuse and is there all the time.

So it looks like it is down to the main relay assembly, connections in between, or (hopefully not) the ECM. I am attaching a basic diagram of the wiring and relays. If you need a more detailed wiring diagram, there is one in the back of the owner's manual.

Double check all the connectors on the main relay. Pull them apart and make sure there is no corrosion and the connections are good. Reseat a couple of times. That sometimes helps clean the connections. WD 40 works good on corrosion.

Basically, you are checking to see if the 12v is coming out of the main relay to the pump. If not, then you have to check to see if the ground is coming from the ECM. If you are not sure about how to check, do not just use a test light for the ground from the ECM. Use a digital voltmeter. If in doubt....that is the time to stop.

Mike

As I look a little closer to the diagram, it does appear that when the starter is activated, 12v is goes to the one side of the fuel pump relay coil. After starting, the 12v then comes from diode with a resistor in series from the 30 amp fuse.

Go ahead and do some tests, but if what I just said is correct, the ECM is providing the ground for the fuel pump relay to operate, which means the ECM is probably ok.

To me, that narrows it down to the main relay, connections, or the 30 amp fuse, which you have already checked. We know the 30 amp fuses are good, because the main relay operates (turning on the ECM and giving you the beeps) and the other is good because the engine cranks ok. So now we are down to main relay and/or connections.

There is a test for the main relay. Just can not get to it right now.

Mike

Thanks so much Mike, I borrowed my buddy's honda shop manual. Inside it has a test for the main relay to the fuel pump, I'll work on it this week and will update the thread. At the least we narrowed it down so I'm hoping I won't have to take it to the shop and if the main relay is bad I'll just buy another one and install it myself.

Sounds like a plan. Fingers crossed. At this point, I am sure your eyes are crossed too!

Mike

There is a service bulletins for bf 130, if y still have old fuel pump set up, take it to local honda dealer.
where r u located ?

Thanks, I have the new fuel pump set up, I'm in orange county, california. I was reading up and I guess there was a recall for some of the bf130's on the main relay so I'm going to call up the dealership and see if mine qualifies.

Here is the official list of "recalls". http://marine.honda.com/owners/recalls The main relay is not on it. There was a Service Bulletin covering the relay, but the motor is well out of warranty. My guess is, it will not be covered. If it were still in warranty, it would be covered, no questions.

But it is worth a try.

Mike

Thanks Mike, the service guy said the exact same thing . At any rate the part was only about 50$, I pick it up thursday so I'll install it and will update this thread, hopefully with a success story .

My main relay comes in tomorrow but I was reading up in the shop manual and it said you can unplug the high pressure fuel pump harness and check the black wire for continuity. I did the black wire to the ground and it had continuity. Since I had already checked both sides of the plug and didn't see 12v coming out earlier I figured it had to be a lack of power from the main relay.

I pulled the main relay and was inspecting the wires and saw that at one time the harness had been cut and reattached, I'm not sure why they did this. The connecting terminal of the blue/white wire wasn't even connected anymore because it had corroded apart! I'll attach a picture. Man was I lucky this didn't occur when I was 120 miles out at sea a few weeks ago!!

I'm pretty sure this is going to be the reason of the problem because when I inspected my main relay the potting underneath looked pretty much like solid molten plastic had sealed it and I doubt it would have failed.

I'll swap in the new relay when it comes in and will again update the post.

The good news is, as long as the wire did not touch a ground, you would have been ok. The three wires are for the PGM panel. The disconnected wire supplies power to the PGM panel, however, the lead elsewhere supplies power up to your keyswitch, etc.

Most likely it broke when you were moving the wires. Otherwise, you would not have been able to read the codes unless someone did so additional modifications under the dash.

Most likely, when the motor was installed there was most likely a 6 pin connector on the motor, but a 3 pin connector on the wiring harness. It was a running change and the dealer probably did not have the proper connector to use. The wiring harnesses now use 6 pin connectors for all their fuel injected engines for the PGM.

Mike

Mike do you think the new main relay is going to plug right into the harness? I'm nervous now, I was hoping that broken wire was the problem .

Are you saying those connectors in the picture really do go to the main relay? By color code, they should go where I said previously.

There should be a round connector and a square connector, both with four leads, coming from the main relay.

If you do not, then, my answer to your last post is .....I don't know.

Mike

Mike once again, you are correct, lol. That wire was not connected to the main relay, I don't really know what it was for but I assume it was for the PGM panel like you said. At any rate I connected that wire again with a waterproof butt connector and of course this fix didn't start the fuel pump.

My new main relay came in and even though I was doubtful because my old main relay looked like the potting underneath was good I of course swapped it in and it fired the fuel pump right up. Problem solved!!

So for anyone who is doing a search on a honda bf130 that is stalling after three seconds and restarts everytime but stalls after 3 seconds again here's what I did:

Drained the vst just in case.
Checked the high pressure fuel filter. I wasn't careful when reinstalling it and pinched the oring in there and had to buy a new one.
Checked for codes on the PGM, there were none once I cleared the codes by shorting the two wires as stated above in this thread.
The high pressure pump was not priming during the start up after the two beeps. Unplugged the harness and checked for 12v during startup. No 12v power to high pressure pump.
Checked continuity on the ground of the high pressure pump plug. Ground showed continuity.
Checked 10 amp fuse and the two 30 amp fuses, all fuses showed continuity and were okay.
Ran a separate 12v power from starter to high pressure pump. Pump fired right up, indicating that the pump was not at fault.

Ordered a new Honda BF130 main relay from the dealer. Main relay had different id numbers on it than the original one, but a previous thread I read said they had changed it. The new main relay also had two rubber grommets on it's base, I assume it is to absorb shock. Swapped in new main relay.

Now when the key was turned you could clearly hear the fuel pump prime for two seconds. Attached earmuffs, turned on the water and the motor fired right up, ran it for a bit and gently increased throttle and it ran fine. Turned engine off and let it rest, it fired up every time without hesitation.

Thanks so much for your help Mike et al, you guys saved me a lot of time and money. My dealer is swamped and would not be able to see me for several weeks.

BTW dealer said that he does not have a ECM that he could swap out, and if the new main relay didn't work out and all the wiring checked out then I would probably have to order a new one to try it out. That would have been a very expensive test, thank goodness it was the main relay.

It is nice to see things went your way this time.

I agree, the ECM is costly...that is why you went through all those steps to eliminate everything else, before you laid the money down for the ECM.

Happy boating!

Mike