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Winterization Warning

fastjeff

fastjeff

Gold Medal Contributor
Had to change a valve cover gasket on my Mopar 360 this weekend. To get to it the exhaust manifold had to come off and, though I drained everything first, you would not believe how much water remained trapped inside the manifold/ riser/ elbow.

My point? Those who think it's fine to merely drain the system at winter time need to think about the water that remains behind. I run Pink Stuff through my motors until it comes out the back (about 4 gallons) to ensure that all the trapped water pockets are flushed out.

It's your call.

Jeff
 
Jeff, I don't disagree when doing this for an exhaust system.
Nor am I suggesting that you do not know how to do this correctly.

But if I may...... for average Joe who draws antifreeze up through his sea water pump and into his engine(s), and then sees the antifreeze exit the exhaust...... please use caution.
This requires engine heat and time in order for the thermostat to open, and lots and lots of antifreeze in order to offer a more complete exchange..........., and there will always be dilution concerns when doing this.

With a raw water cooling system, at any given time most all sea water is by-passing the actual engine cooling demands, and is going right out the exhaust system. This is due to the raw water cooling T-stat housing porting.
The misnomer occurs when we see the antifreeze exit the exhaust.
We see the antifreeze coming out the exhaust, and we think All Is Well.

If we do this, I'd suggest draining again afterwards.
Just plain air will not freeze, expand, and crack our expensive cast iron parts.

IMO, the corrosion inhibiting properties of antifreeze are gravely over-rated when contrasted to the corrosion that occurs during the normal season's usage.



Remember....... all winterizing is perfect in the Fall.:)
It's not until Spring Time that we find out just how perfect the winterizing was. :mad:


Just say'n.

.
 
When I winterize, I first drain the block and manifolds by removing all the plugs and pulling the waterpump hoses. I then begin pouring antifreeze in thru the thermostat housing and as the block fills up and the pink starts flowing out of the plugs/hoses, I then replace that plug/hose and then continue filling until all plugs/hoses are replaced and pink comes out the back. This assures me that antifreeze has gotten everywhere it's supposed to.
 
I too drain everything FIRST, and I used to pull the t-stats temporarily before sucking in the Pink Stuff. I've since learned that, since all motors have some kind of by pass circuit around the t-stat, the Pink Stuff will fill the motor even with the t-stat fully CLOSED! I've done this several times now with complete satisfaction.

Jeff
 
good info guys. I just winterized today. Ran 6 gallons through each of my fully warmed up 440's (raw water cooled) and then opened up block and riser plugs to make sure I had pink stuff. Also fogged engine. Does anyone else pull their plugs and fog the cylinders too or am I over killing it?
 
I prefer doing mine cold...pull T stat & water pump ( they go in the warm basement) drain everything first, poke a wire into the drain cocks to remove silt build up,pour in the pink stuff then drain the manifolds. pull hoses & open all the cocks..& finally pull the plugs & oil the cylinders. Have never had an issue, & cleaning the T stats & stripping the pumps gives me something to do on those long cold winter nights
 
You guys with raw water/salt water should get on a Salt Away regimine after every few runs.So nobody fills there block with Antifreeze? You just let it sit dry?

old hatt,defintely fog it to kill it,just seconds before you run a mixture of marvel,seafoam,good gas thru the carb rev it to get most every thing out...oops forgot the Stabil in the tank also
 
greasemonkey said:
old hatt, defintely fog it to kill it,
Click to expand...
Suggestion regarding fogging:
Instead of allowing the fogging solution kill the engine, have a helper with you so that the ignition can be cut while you continue fogging until the rotating assembly comes to rest.
Do this at approximately 1,200 RPM.
This way the fogging solution is not undergoing combustion.

The difference in protection may be subtle, but there is a difference.


Also, with any V-8 Dual Plane intake manifold, an equal amount of fogging solution must be applied to each primary throttle bore.
If we miss one plane, or get an unequal amount into one plane, we'll miss 4 cylinders or end up with unequal protection at those 4 cylinders.


Remember....., ALL winterizing is perfect in the Fall.:D
It's not until Spring time that we learn just how perfect it was!:mad:

.
 
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fastjeff said:
Had to change a valve cover gasket on my Mopar 360 this weekend. To get to it the exhaust manifold had to come off and, though I drained everything first, you would not believe how much water remained trapped inside the manifold/ riser/ elbow.

My point? Those who think it's fine to merely drain the system at winter time need to think about the water that remains behind. I run Pink Stuff through my motors until it comes out the back (about 4 gallons) to ensure that all the trapped water pockets are flushed out.

It's your call.

Jeff
Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... Dry storage is the norm 'round here,...

The only explanation for the water you found is,...
Ya Didn't rod out the drain holes, after you removed the plugs...

I leave a big ole SSteel deckscrew layin' on my intake manifold, Just for that reason,...
When I drain my motors, there's Not enough water left in 'em to freeze, 'n bust Nothin'...

Just pullin' the plugs is totally inadaquate... Ya Gotta rod out the crud.....

I boat in sweetwater, so rust is a non-issue,....
but even so, sand, silt, 'n general crud builds up the the drain areas in the course of a season,.....

Tablespoons, or even a cup of water won't hurt a thing,...
A quart or more can do real damage...
 
I ALWAYS leave the block and manifolds full of Pink Stuff! Just imagine that exposed iron rusting away in there all winter long.

I do fogging a bit differently: I pull the coil wire and wheel it over for 10 - 15 seconds while spraying fogging into the carb. Why? Cause that stuff burns!

How do I know htis? Fogged an outboard belonging to one of my customers by spraying it into the plug holes. I then tried the pull starter (which I had worked on) to see if it was working right. Motor started right up and ran for several seconds---and there was NO gas in the carb; I had run her dry.

Think about that.

Jeff
 
The bottom line...If what you do for winter storage to your beloved old Mopars works...Then keep doing it. it seems there are as many different ways of doing the job as there are people to tell you how to do it

Pete
 
Pete makes a good point regarding how many different ways this can be done, and I'm sure that there are many methods being used.

I too have a slightly different take re; some of this and it's a result of seeing and hearing what got these guys into trouble.
The sucking antifreeze into the sea water system on a raw water cooled engine, for example.
When the owners of these broken engine blocks are honest with us, we'll usually hear the true story..... and most often, it will be the story about them sucking antifreeze up through the sea water system, and then NOT draining it again afterwards.
Or, they drained without probing.

fastjeff said:
  1. I ALWAYS leave the block and manifolds full of Pink Stuff! Just imagine that exposed iron rusting away in there all winter long.

  2. I do fogging a bit differently: I pull the coil wire and wheel it over for 10 - 15 seconds while spraying fogging into the carb. Why? Cause that stuff burns!

  3. How do I know htis? Fogged an outboard belonging to one of my customers by spraying it into the plug holes. I then tried the pull starter (which I had worked on) to see if it was working right. Motor started right up and ran for several seconds---and there was NO gas in the carb; I had run her dry.

  4. Think about that.

Jeff
Click to expand...

  1. Jeff, I think that the amount of corrosion that could occur during the lay up period is paled by comparison to what occurs during the normal season. Let's contrast this to engine that never sees a lay up period.
    IMO, the corrosion protection with antifreeze is greatly over-rated.


  2. I also do fogging a bit differently.
    Warm up and oil change would be first... if an oil change is part of this for you.
    Along with this would be oil enriched fuel (or stabilizer) within the fuel filter cartridge.
    Impeller is removed for the dry start that I prefer.
    Fogging takes place during this 8-10 second dry start.
    The engine is held at about 1,200 rpm while I spray the solution equally into each intake manifold plane.
    Ignition is killed with NO change to throttle plate position, and I continue fogging until all comes to rest.
    With the Ignition killed, there is no buring of the fogging solution.

  3. Once fogged, we do not want to turn the engine over.
    Let her sit just as it was when she stopped rotating.

  4. I will if you will. :D

These single point drain systems are getting people into trouble also.
I had one here this summer that has the single point block drain that was apparently winterized by a certified mechanic.
The exhaust manifolds survived, but the engine block did not.
Reason: the mechanic used the single point drain, and perhaps did not look for an adequate amount water to drain out.
You can't probe these with the hoses and Y fitting in place, and if you remove the hoses and Y fitting, you may as well leave them removed.

Beautiful boat, low hours, nice sounding 5.0GL even with the split open block, but of course it won't hold water.
Had there NOT been this single point drain, and had the mechanic opened the drain ports and probed them, this owner would have enjoyed the summer boating.

Unfortunately, this was done two winters ago, the boat went into storage, and was not used since.
This far after the fact, the owner can't prove that it was not used the following year... so he's rather stuck!
The project is still on hold.

.
 
1981 318 RWC 225HP...

My procedure is:

1) Add fuel stabilizer to tank.

2) Run engine on fresh water using the " bucket & suck-it " flush out method until operating temp. reached ( 140* F )

3) Drain block & manifolds... always probing drain openings.

4) Using the " bucket & suck-it " flush out method, with fuel supply shut off, draw fresh pink anti-freeze thru the entire system. I hang a bucket under the exhaust to catch the overflow & continuously recirculate until the engine quits.

5) Remove flame arrestor & inject fogging spray into carb. Soak rag as well & cover carb. Reinstall flame arrestor.

6) remove plugs & inject fogging spray into each cylinder until overflow occurs.

Simple & straight forward. Never had a problem & living on LI some winters are severe.

Just my .02
 
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mictat2214 said:
1981 318 RWC 225HP...

My procedure is:

1) Add fuel stabilizer to tank.

2) Run engine on fresh water using the " bucket & suck-it " flush out method until operating temp. reached ( 140* F )

3) Drain block & manifolds... always probing drain openings.

4) Using the " bucket & suck-it " flush out method, with fuel supply shut off, draw fresh pink anti-freeze thru the entire system. I hang a bucket under the exhaust to catch the overflow & continuously recirculate until the engine quits.

5) Remove flame arrestor & inject fogging spray into carb. Soak rag as well & cover carb. Reinstall flame arrestor.

6) remove plugs & inject fogging spray into each cylinder until overflow occurs.

Simple & straight forward. Never had a problem & living on LI some winters are severe.

Just my .02
Click to expand...
  1. Agreed. You can also enrich the mixture directly into the fuel filter cartridge.

  2. No disagreement here.
    If you allow temperature to open the thermostat, you do get an eventual full exchange.

  3. Good, and a key point.

  4. If you drain again afterwards, you'll eliminate the risk of any resisdual cooling water diluting the antifreeze.
    Your call, but this is exactly what gets some people into trouble.

  5. I presume that the engine is running while you fog, and that you are spraying equally into each plane..... yes/no?

  6. Certainly no harm/no foul..... but I believe that this is over-kill if the fogging was done dynamically and equally into each intake manifold plane, AND when/if the ignition is cut.


This is just my two cents.... I'm not suggesting that this is how anyone should, or should not do this.
If it's been working for you, that's great!


.
 
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RicardoMarine said:
  1. Agreed. You can also enrich the mixture directly into the fuel filter cartridge.
  2. No disagreement here.
    If you allow temperature to open the thermostat, you do get an eventual full exchange.
  3. Good, and a key point.
  4. If you drain again afterwards, you'll eliminate the risk of any resisdual cooling water diluting the antifreeze.
    Your call, but this is exactly what gets some people into trouble.
  5. I presume that the engine is running while you fog, and that you are spraying equally into each plane..... yes/no?
  6. Certainly no harm/no foul..... but I believe that this is over-kill if the fogging was done dynamically and equally into each intake manifold plane, AND when/if the ignition is cut.


This is just my two cents.... I'm not suggesting that this is how anyone should, or should not do this.
If it's been working for you, that's great!



Answer to #5) No. See #4 in original post. Been doing the procedure that I outlined for 31 years with no problems. Can't change now as I no longer am involved with boating; Gleefully sold my boat in June, 2012...
Click to expand...
 
Don't want to get into the full/empty antifreeze debate. Do about 200 boats a year and what I do works for me, no failures. But I will start this debate; Fogging is over rated. Yes I said it. Did I ruffle some feathers?
 
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No feathers ruffled here. We all have our own opinions, and we all have our own ideas as to what works best. Personally, I see an advantage to properly fogging.... not improperly fogging, we're talking about the real McCoy.

Woodie, in lieu of fogging, I'm working on a design for electro/mechanical rocker arms.
When the engine is turned off, the rocker arms raise up, and allow all valves to fully close. :D :D


.
 
WoodieMan said:
Don't want to get into the full/empty antifreeze debate. Do about 200 boats a year and what I do works for me, no failures. But I will start this debate; Fogging is over rated. Yes I said it. Did I ruffle some feathers?
Click to expand...


I agree. I have a closed loop system so I suck up 5 gal. Of RV antifreeze (with rust inhibitors and no alcohol) cold, shut the motors down then pour some Marval Mystery oil in the carb then crank for 10 seconds so it distributes through all cylinders. Done ! Never had a problem. Unfortunately in come out next week :(
 
Trojanman said:
........... shut the motors down then pour some Marval Mystery oil in the carb then crank for 10 seconds so it distributes through all cylinders. Done !
Click to expand...

Oiling the cylinders comes from the old days of vertical cylinder in-line engines and flat tops pistons. The piston decks and ring landings are fairly level. This works just fine for storage protection, and/or for when oiling to eliminate valve issues (compression testing).

However, when oiling V engine cylinders (whether thru the intake or thru the spark plug ports), gravity pulls the oil to the low side of the piston deck and ring landings, often leaving the upper areas rather dry.
Add today's dished pistons into the mix, and you can see where we're headed!

I think that this old technique was just carried over to the later engines without giving it any real thought to the V engines.

For those who may not see the benefits and protection of fogging, you're likely fogging until the fogging solution kills the engine. Most instructions suggest this!

I'd suggest that we fog at 1,200 rpm (or so), and have the ignition cut while we keep fogging.
When we dynamically introduce the fogging solution, and without combustion burning the solution, we end up with much better cylinder wall protection.
Don't forget the dual planes..... If we miss one plane on a V-8, we also miss 4 cylinders.

This is just may take and my opinion only.


It may be time to bring out the popcorn on this thread! :D


.
 
RicardoMarine said:
Oiling the cylinders comes from the old days of vertical cylinder in-line engines and flat tops pistons. The piston decks and ring landings are fairly level. This works just fine for storage protection, and/or for when oiling to eliminate valve issues (compression testing).

However, when oiling V engine cylinders (whether thru the intake or thru the spark plug ports), gravity pulls the oil to the low side of the piston deck and ring landings, often leaving the upper areas rather dry.
Add today's dished pistons into the mix, and you can see where we're headed!

I think that this old technique was just carried over to the later engines without giving it any real thought to the V engines.

For those who may not see the benefits and protection of fogging, you're likely fogging until the fogging solution kills the engine. Most instructions suggest this!

I'd suggest that we fog at 1,200 rpm (or so), and have the ignition cut while we keep fogging.
When we dynamically introduce the fogging solution, and without combustion burning the solution, we end up with much better cylinder wall protection.
Don't forget the dual planes..... If we miss one plane on a V-8, we also miss 4 cylinders.

This is just may take and my opinion only.


It may be time to bring out the popcorn on this thread! :D


.
Click to expand...

Extra butter for me please!

Rick, I usually have to winterize and cover by myself,funny everybody is around during the summer for a ride but no one is around to help winterize ??? Anyway, that's why I have to introduce oil to the carb. and cylinders after it's shut down. Would a different type of oil be better? Or should I just not bother ?
 
Trojanman said:
Extra butter for me please!

Rick, I usually have to winterize and cover by myself,funny everybody is around during the summer for a ride but no one is around to help winterize ??? Anyway, that's why I have to introduce oil to the carb. and cylinders after it's shut down. Would a different type of oil be better? Or should I just not bother ?
Click to expand...
OK.... here it is!
And BTW, I filled this machine with real butter, not that fake crap! :D

images




Yeah, killing the ignition by yourself, while fogging, would be difficult.
You'd just have to call on a favor, and have a second person help you, or.... you rig up a remote switch that would interrupt the power to the ignition.

On the flip side, and Woodie will agree, many engines are put to rest without fogging, and they seem to fair well.

For me, the quick dry-start (impellers removed) would be equally, if not more important.
8 to 10 seconds is all that's required.
This blows the exhaust out and any residual water along with it.

.
 
JJDebeers said:
It's actually very easy, Ricky. I just pull the plug on the ignition coil while continuing to spray fogging oil down the carb. Now that's multi-tasking!
Click to expand...
-JJ, I like the multi-tasking, and if this is the power source, that will work.

fastjeff said:
You can also pull the coil wire from the cap and ground it to the block.
Click to expand...
Jeff, I want to see the look on your face as you take the high tension lead from the cap to the engine block!
Just those few micro seconds! :D :D

images



Just kidding you, Jeff!

.
 
Hah! That's what I must have looked like 50 years ago when troubleshooting my Merc outboard while standing in waist deep water. As Dear Brother gave the rope a mighty heave, I felt a tingle, which caused me to stop holding the plugs in my hands again the block! Ouch!

"Got spark?" the rottem bugger had the nerve to ask.

Jeff
 
sometimes its the quickest way...some outboards I wont even try like the OIS 2000...she'll light you up good especially when your standing in water...;)
 
I run 10 gallons of pink antifreeze through a warm engine and then pull the drain plugs (after shutting down the engine). Having pink antifreeze come out of the drain holes confirms that the antifreeze got where it needed to go.
 
JJDebeers said:
It's actually very easy, Ricky. I just pull the plug on the ignition coil while continuing to spray fogging oil down the carb. Now that's multi-tasking!

-JJ
Click to expand...
.
My only problem is getting to the coil wire after I start it. It seems as soon as I start it it sucks up five gallons of antifreeze in about six seconds so I'm afraid to move from the fly bridge to the motors in fear that it will run dry. Is it true that I can jump it by putting a jump wire from the battery to the pos. side of coil?
 
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