Crusader 270 electronic ignition conversion issues

Rick - once again great insight and diagrams of course. I will do more testing when I get back home. On another note i received this not too long ago from Crusader. Looks like a 30* max at 3k RPM. The plate below is a little different frm mine so maybe this is for an engine year older/newer than mine but at least it has OEM specs. I have asked them to let me know if this plate is for my engine year or not and then from there I guess I will take the 30* at 3k RPM with a grain of salt.........

Rick - once again great insight and diagrams of course. I will do more testing when I get back home. On another note i received this not too long ago from Crusader. Looks like a 30* max at 3k RPM. The plate below is a little different frm mine so maybe this is for an engine year older/newer than mine but at least it has OEM specs. I have asked them to let me know if this plate is for my engine year or not and then from there I guess I will take the 30* at 3k RPM with a grain of salt.........

I believe that plate would be for flywheel timing in lieu of harmonic balancer indexing.

If you were to imagine that plate as though the arrows point towards the front of the engine, the RH and LH indexing should work correctly.
The strobe light would cause the black F/W TDC mark to flash at either your right side or to your left side of the zero mark.

Note the 10* difference between the V-6 and V-8 advance.

(this is not to scale, but gives a rough idea of where the tdc mark might be)

Are you suggesting that timing can be done at the flywheel level? I was unaware of this. If so does that mean I can rotate the distrib and balance that up to these marks from the rear of the engine at the flywheel instead of the harmonic balancer?? I'm a bit confised on that one. Plus, I dont recall my plate having these markings on them. No sense making any judgment until I get home to look at it more closely. Just curious though as I wasn't aware it could be adjusted from that angle.

Kirk, I guess that I assumed that plate was from your engine.

junior4597 said:

Are you suggesting that timing can be done at the flywheel level? I was unaware of this.
Yes, ignition timing can be done at either the harmonic balancer, or at the flywheel if your flywheel and flywheel cover (aka bell housing in the auto world) are indexed for this. The horse race simply runs in the oposite direction when using the flywheel..... a mirror image, if you will.

I'd stay with the front balancer since you are understanding what you're doing there.

If so does that mean I can rotate the distrib and balance that up to these marks from the rear of the engine at the flywheel instead of the harmonic balancer??
I believe that typically the flywheel marking is TDC only..... but you could varify that.
Again, I'd stay with the front balancer.

I'm a bit confised on that one. Plus, I dont recall my plate having these markings on them. No sense making any judgment until I get home to look at it more closely. Just curious though as I wasn't aware it could be adjusted from that angle.

Basically, it's six to one/half dozen to the other if each end is marked off adequately.

But again, you may as well take advantage of the 30* to 35* BTDC markings that your balancer now offers you. (with the correct decal, that is.)

Click to expand...

Now, if your flywheel is marked off and indexed up to 35* or so (i.e., tdc, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35*), and/or if the flywheel cover has the plate with either a zero or progressive markings............, then yes, you could strobe the flywheel and achieve the same goal.
But like said, the horse is now running in the oposite direction.


I'd stick with your balancer and decal.

.

That plate is from an early Crusader setup...Note the location as well as the recommendation for the gear.....real early.

The crusaders come with markings on the flywheel but only for TDC and 10 deg BTDC. Using a tape on the balancer is much more accurate.

Regarding unpublished TA numbers, it is too common of a practice. The other thing to remember is the engine marinizer has NO control over what hull their engines get installed into. They set the engines up so they provide adequate power while maintaining an acceptable warranty claim rate. My point is that if you know what you are doing, you can deviate from the factory numbers...nothing more than basic custom tuning. If you want a published starting point, and you know the engine is in its original configuration (as GM made it), you can use the mercrusier curves.

I like the comment of being able to use "custom tuning" as that is the only success I have had thus far - provided I didn't use the wrong diameter tape. That said, if my engine is in it's original condition, which it "looks" like it is, i'd like to try the Mercruiser curves. Do you have them? My numbers are as follows so far - Idle - 10* BTDC, 28* TA at 3k RPM. Engine runs rough at these settings. Curious to see the Mercruiser numbers - at least just to try.

Thanks all!

Mark, that is good info to know! BTW, did my marked up image look OK, and did it make sense to you?

I rarely use the flywheel for timing since I primarily do the Volvo Penta I/O's, but I have used it and have seen only 10*, like you mentioned.


Mark, I agree. I think that Kirk could use the Mercruiser numbers, and be relatively safe.
I originally asked if he'd contact Crusader to learn about the engine build, of which IMO, will influence TA numbers.
I don't know what Crusader typically used for a piston profile!

Merc typically used the out-the-box GM SBC fitted with the full dished pistons, hence their conservative TA numbers.


You'd think that a Crusader rep (or any rep for that matter) would not only know the Ignition curve information (degrees and RPM), but would also be able to offer engine build specs for the engines that they provide!

Oh well!

.

View attachment mid 80's merc SBC curve.pdf

The service book for the 85-89's show this as the curve for the mallory equipped SBCs. That said, it is the same curve as the T-Bolt-IV systems. The curve, in my opinion, is conservative and unlikely to get you into any trouble with a production engine.

OK, I do have a Mallory distributor - part number YL 670AV. Using this graph I can set the timing to a conservative setting between 22-26* BTDC off of my BASE of 10* BTDC. Then seeing this is conservative I may be able to tweak it a little higher - depends. This is all provided that my harmonic balancer diameter is validated so I can apply the correct tape. I will try this but I unless these puppy's are so sensitive I did have it se to 28* TA so the 22-26* is not that far off - which is what I thought before - I know I was close.

I will try this Friday - thank you all!

junior4597 said:

1. OK, I do have a Mallory distributor - part number YL 670AV.
2. Using this graph I can set the timing to a conservative setting between 22-26* BTDC off of my BASE of 10* BTDC.
3. Then seeing this is conservative I may be able to tweak it a little higher - depends.
4. This is all provided that my harmonic balancer diameter is validated so I can apply the correct tape.
5. I will try this but I unless these puppy's are so sensitive I did have it se to 28* TA so the 22-26* is not that far off - which is what I thought before - I know I was close.

Click to expand...

1... The YL670AV is an older Kettering System (points) style Mallory, mechanical advance.
Because these are old, and possibly worn, I have recommended that you replace them, rather than add the Pertronix conversion kits.
The kits only change the triggering. They do ZERO for any correction to advance characteristics, and ZERO to correct worn shaft bushings.
Electronic triggering, such as the Pertronix Hall Effect, still requires a consistance and controlled dimension between the magnet unit and the sensor unit. This controls Dwell Angle.
Just as with a kettering system, if dwell fluxuates, so does the triggering event.


2.... Not necessarily "off of my BASE of 10* BTDC"..... but rather a result of "including" BASE.
We can't help but see BASE advance as being part of the progressive and Full In TA.
These cannot be seperated visually once we fire up and begin strobing our timing marks.
(see ** below)

3.... At your descretion!


4... This should preceed all else, IMO.


5.... These old YL670AV's may be sensitive if the flyweight system, shaft bushings, etc, are worn beyond what is acceptible.
Hence my suggestion of NEW replacements.
Perhaps $270 a pop, but it only hurts once, and for a short while only!

******************************************

** Think of a distributor that offers ZERO advance because it has no centrifugal mechanical mechanism.
We install it, we set the advance at 5* BTDC.

We now fire up on 5*, we rev up on 5*, and we rev full up on 5*.
The only change that we can make to the advance, will be by moving the distributor one way or the other.

Now we add a centrifugal mechanical advancing mechanism to the distributor.

Below the RPM where the centrifugal begins (usually below 900 rpm), we strobe and see BASE ONLY.
We still have our base of 5*, but as we increase engine speed to above 900 RPM, we now see the rather linear progressive that is being added to the BASE advance.
It will continue adding to the BASE of 5*, until it reaches an RPM where the advance mechanism limits out.


.

There should be 24 degrees of advance in that distributor as mallory delivered it so you may wanna look into it.

You may also wanna contact mallory - they used to offer a rebuild/upgrade service that was reasonable. With the new ownership, that option may have been shed or priced beyond sanity.

Latest update - I am back from my work travels and was at it again today. Here is the latest - and unfortunately still discouraged! I'll try and break it down simple so I don't go on forever.

I checked the diameter of the HB today and to my surprise and delight I realized that they are in fact 6 3/4 diam - not the 7" I thought. I took Rick's advice and just used a pair of woodworking clamps to get the separation. It turns out they are 6 3/4. My bad all along. So I thought this was it, I was timing to the wrong tape! I put the new tape on, and timed it accordingly - 10* BTDC. Took her out and it still slugged and popped! Very upset. So what I did is play and adjust while I was out and under way in order to get rid of the popping. The only way I can get the engines to respond and to get on plane is if I advance the Base. I went from 12 - 15 - 20, and everywhere in between. I got the best response and feel with no popping around 18-20* BTDC at idle. Even though I got on plane and she felt good I was only getting about 16 MPH at 3000 RPM. Slow to say the least so I'm assuming thats too far advanced which reduces horsepower. I'm at my wits end here - don't know what else to do and or try. Also, in attempting every effort possible I also emailed Mallory to see if they had any specs. They did respond (see below) but their numbers are completely different! I think I'm too close to this now as my head is spinning - ugh! Maybe I should just buy new distributors? I'm afraid they will also need to be timed and I'll probably struggle with the installation - don't want to over-do it!

Always appreciated!

Below are the mechanical advance curves for your distributor.For setting the initial advance depends on the engine specification that we do not have. For a new, complete replacement, electronic, distributor you can use Mallory Marine part number 9-26306 for left hand rotation engines and 9-26307 for right hand rotation engine.
Advance Curves 2°@1200 RPM
7°@1700 RPM
13°@2300 RPM
13°@3000 RPM

Junior, now that you have the correct decal, your degree markings are more accurate by possibly up to several degrees.

From what I hear, you are needing to increase the advance in order to get the 3k rpm from these engines while under load.
If you are adjusting the advance by ear, and if this improves performance, and if the engines are NOT detonating, then your adjustment is getting close.
(I must say "close" because this is not a science, nor a recommendation!)

However, this automatically takes me back to something being wrong with your procedure while using the strobe light and timing decal.

Let's back up here.

The reason for setting BASE advance is to give you a pre-determined starting point for ignition advance.
BASE can be anywhere from 6, 7, 8 or 10 degrees. The engines will fire up and idle on most any of these numbers.
My hunch is that 8*-10* will work.

What occurs from BASE on, is your progressive advance that by all rights should take care of the "Under Load" operation.
The mechanical/progressive advance will be in the range of 22-24 degrees, it will likey be fairly linear, and it should NOT max out until 3.2k rpm or so.

Add the BASE advance (6, 7, 8 or 10 degrees) to the progressive (approx 22-24 degrees), and there's your TA number.
Remember..... with your system type, any change to BASE is an equal change to TA.
If TA is too great by 2*, reduce BASE by 2*, and so on.


Since these settings are not working, it leads me to believe that you; A) are not understanding how to check the progressive..... B) something with the progressive numbers is not being seen...... C) your timing marks are still not accurate... perhaps the TDC is off.


With the Decal markings, you will NOT be using the digitally advancing timing light in the advancing mode.
You MUST use the digitally advancing light in Standard Mode, or a standard timing light.
Otherwise, the decal readings will not be meaningful to you.



You have my phone number, and I certainly don't mind talking to you if I can be of help.
Also, if you could take a few photos and post them, one of us may see something that's been over-looked.


.

you may wanna pull a few plugs and see if they have any color besides white....ignition adjustments won't help a fuel issue....

I wanted to get back up here to put some closer to this issue I've been banging my head against the wall with. As many know (per this long and drawn out thread) I had converted my points set-up over to the Pertronix electronic ignition. Once converted I had a hell of a time getting the engines to run optimally. Going back and forth up here with many knowledgable people - and thank you very much - I finally have resolved the issue. For those willing to read through this whole threat the final issue here was that the kit was NOT COMPATIBLE with my Mallory distributors. No one could figure it out, not even the 3 - mind you 3 - support guys at Pertronix that I called over the past 3 weeks. The 4th person I spoke with finally dug up a foot-note in their manual stating that the Ignighter II kit was NOT COMPATIBLE with the Mallory YL 670-AV!!!! Go figure! It's all about who you speak with but all this back and forth could have been aleviated if this was posted clearly or if the sales person and the Pertronix techs were careful enough in matching compatibility. Ultimately it was my fault for not figuring that out but still. So, for those out there wanting to convert I would suggest being very careful with matching up compatibilty and ensuring the kit is the proper one for your distributor. So, the points went back in, engines run great, going to enjoy the rest of the summer and reaplace the whole distributor in the off season! Wasted 3 weeks - but I now know how to time and engine with my eyes closed! A little irony there.........

So ya yanked those Pertronix kits, eh? Good for you.

In post 41 I touched on how sensitive the Pertronix is re; pick up to magnet unit dimension is... both in height and distance.
If you're willing to spend the time, these can be adjusted and made to work, but may be a tad bit too tedious.

Kirk, you asked me about setting dwell angle.
Dwell angle is the duration of contact point closure (i.e., ignition coil saturation).
For an 8 cylinder engine, each cylinder is dedicated 45* distributor angle in which to saturate (closed contacts) and collapse (open or "break") the coil field, and to produce one spark event. (360* divided X 8 = 45*)
Out of the 45* total angle, a portion of this will be your dwell angle.... probably 30* or 31*.... check your specs.

You'll need to read the 8 cylinder scale on the dwell meter.

When connected, simply start the engine and read the dwell angle.
If you do this without starting the engine, make sure that the coil can fully discharge for each saturation cycle.
(iow, place one spark plug and plug lead into the coil tower, while giving the spark plug engine block contact)
Be careful with fuel vapors!

If the dwell angle is too large, the gap will need to be increased by moving the contact base plate....., and visa-versa if dwell angle is too small.

After you set dwell, rev the engines up a bit, and watch to see if the dwell angle remains constant.

There's not much posted on Youtube for dwell meter use.
The scale on the meter will look similar to this and requires you to use the 8 cylinder scale for your engines.