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V8-92 TA Water in Sump

P

peter karl

New member
Hi all,

I noticed that I have coolant water lands* in the sump.The engine was overhauled and since then has only run 500 hrs.
I did not use it for 5 weeks and when I started the engine now and it ran fine, no misfire. No indication of fault in gauges.
The only difference was a bit more black smoke in idle speed.
Before I started the engine, I checked the coolant and I discovered that it was empty. I then filled it up and started the
engine, as mentioned above no particular problem, I checked for leeks and did not see any water coming out.
After 1/2 hour I stopped the engine and the next morning checked the oil and found that it was up to the end of the oil
stick.
This is when I opened the oil discharge valve and found it full of plain water. About 5 gallons!
Then opening the inspection lid on the right bank, I did not find any water there. Everything looked good.
The left bank is impossible to reach due to very restricted space in the engine room.

I live in Borneo (Malaysia) and it is almost impossible to find any one with such technical knowledge regarding
these engines.

Has anyone on this forum ever had a similar problem? Or has any idea what could be the cause ?
 
Whatever it is, it is not good. You say that you "checked the coolant and discovered it was empty". Then you say that you "filled it up and started the engine". But, then you say that the crankcase was "full of plain water!". Are you running "plain water" in the cooling system? That will not work, if so.

However, in this case, it may actually help if you did not have "antifreeze" in there. You need to drain the oil (and water) immediately and replace with fresh oil so as not to destroy the engine bearings. Do NOT run the engine again until the source of the coolant leak is found and repaired.

A freshly rebuilt engine should not leak internally and I suspect that the work done was inferior in nature. While it is possible that a seal or component failed in service, it is highly likely that the engine was not assembled correctly in the first place. Do you have contact with the rebuilder and are they a "reputable" business? That is the first place to ask questions.

As far as what it COULD or MIGHT be, there are many items that could cause this. One item that comes to mind is the aftercooler. That is a small radiator under the blower used to cool incoming air from the turbocharger. It is the "A" in the description 8V-92 TA.

It a cylinder liner seal. But, either of those would probably have shown up well before the 500 hours that were put on the engine.

There are rare cases of the water pump seal leaking into the oil.

The bottom line is that a quality tech is needed to pressurize the system and locate the source instead of guessing.
 
jgmo said:
Whatever it is, it is not good. You say that you "checked the coolant and discovered it was empty". Then you say that you "filled it up and started the engine". But, then you say that the crankcase was "full of plain water!". Are you running "plain water" in the cooling system? That will not work, if so.

However, in this case, it may actually help if you did not have "antifreeze" in there. You need to drain the oil (and water) immediately and replace with fresh oil so as not to destroy the engine bearings. Do NOT run the engine again until the source of the coolant leak is found and repaired.

A freshly rebuilt engine should not leak internally and I suspect that the work done was inferior in nature. While it is possible that a seal or component failed in service, it is highly likely that the engine was not assembled correctly in the first place. Do you have contact with the rebuilder and are they a "reputable" business? That is the first place to ask questions.

As far as what it COULD or MIGHT be, there are many items that could cause this. One item that comes to mind is the aftercooler. That is a small radiator under the blower used to cool incoming air from the turbocharger. It is the "A" in the description 8V-92 TA.

It a cylinder liner seal. But, either of those would probably have shown up well before the 500 hours that were put on the engine.

There are rare cases of the water pump seal leaking into the oil.

The bottom line is that a quality tech is needed to pressurize the system and locate the source instead of guessing.
Click to expand...

thanks for your promt repley
i bout the boat last year in ft.lauderdale and the seller is an i.............. me to i payed.He was not the former owner he bout the boat from a lawyer
and he dont no where rebuild the engines and has no papers about this case.
yesterday i fill up the water again and this afternoon the water was in the sump i was not running the engine (i am here 12 hours ahead to florida)
i had a lot off trouble whit the engines last sebt. RPM ft.lauderdale build in 16 new injektors and check the engines and say the looks good.
130 hours later one piston on the portengine was blocked and destroy the liner becourse a bolt holding the comrod was falling in the sump.
we repair it now the engine runs fine.Now starts the trouble whit stbengine ! i got crazy
you say maybe it can be the aftercooler i take out the aftercs. and clean these they was very dirty just 5 weeks ago .
i hope i did not make a mistake when i brought them back in position.
how can i check this !!!
best regards peter
 
You took the blower off and cleaned the aftercoolers? Or, are we talking about something other than the aftercoolers. They are inside the engine under the blower.

But, if that is what you did, then that's my first suspicion. You have to pressurize the system and look for water leaking into the blower box.
 
first of all, so sorry for my English spelling (although I live in Borneo, I am German and I know my spelling is not quite was it should be!! Today I got somebody to write for me).
I have cleaned the aftercoolers, but on my engines they are not under the blower boxes, they are actually behind them at the end of the engines at about the same level as
the turbo chargers (two per engine). As mentioned yesterday, I put water into the coolant and today I let it out again and once again it was around 7 gallons of water.
I have the suspicion (as the water comes out completely without pressure and all other parts of the engine are situated on a higher level than the water outlet) that it
might be a problem with the oil cooler. Am I right with my suspicion ? Would it help if I gave you the engine number ?
 
Your English and spelling just fine. It is AT LEAST as good as many U.S. mechanic's that I know of.

What you are describing seems to be, at least to me, are INTERCOOLERS not aftercoolers. Detroit Diesel utilizes three types of intake air coolers. They are:
1. Air Charge. This cools the air PRIOR to it entering the turbocharger.

2. Intercooler. This cools the air immediately upon exiting the turbocharger but before it enters the supercharger.

3. Aftercooler. This cools the air AFTER is has passed through the turbocharger AND the supercharger (blower).

Sometimes, but not often, these are used in conjunction with each other. So, it is possible that a given engine is intercooled and aftercooled. The problem with this is that each cooler introduces restriction to air flow and will reduce horsepower to some extent. The gain is cooler air entering the cylinders and that increases the ability to make boost or horsepower.

Your engine number would indicate how the engine was INTENDED to be equipped but might not be now. It couldn't hurt for you to let me look it up, if I can, so that you will know for sure what you're supposed to have.

Your oil cooler question is a good one. But, typically, there is a much greater oil pressure than water pressure when the engine is running. 40 to 50 psi oil pressure versus 10-12 psi water pressure. So, what usually happens is that, with the engine running, oil will tend to invade the cooling system, not vice versa.

If water is entering the crankcase when the engine is stopped, it COULD be from the oil cooler. But if your see most of the transfer of coolant taking place from the cooling system to the oil while the engine is running, it is likely because it is coming from an area where it is NOT encountering oil pressure.
 
Hi jgmo,
thank you so much for your advice up to now, it has already been a great help. But my nightmare continues....

I took off the oil cooler which looked good, no corrosion. I'll make a pressure test and then rebuild the oil cooler.

However, today I opened the air-box inspection covers on the outside (left) bank and to my dismay discovered
that water was coming out on the first 3 and also old "carbon", it just does not look good.


I tried to check the liners with my fingers and I did not feel that anything was broken.


The next step I am planning is to have a compression test done and afterwards I will remove
the head.



It is strange because the right bank looks good inside, no old "carbon", no water.


Any idea what could be the cause ?
 
This is the point at which you really need to pressurize the cooling system to see if one or more of your liner seals is leaking on that bank. With the inspection covers off, the system filled with water and 15 psi pressure applied, the source may become very evident. Have flashlight, inspection mirror at the ready and have a helper apply the pressure with a hand pump. Just don't over pressure the system or you could damage more seals.
 
Hi jgmo,

it me again, I followed your advice to presurize the cooling system. I took off the cylinder head and on the first 2 liner the seals cooked/burned/melted (whatever you call it). The 3rd one started to melt on the side to the 2nd liner. The pistons also look as if they have been overheated and the 3rd liner has small cracks in the air-intake area. I put in 3 new liners and pistons, on the 4th one I only exchanged the piston rings.
I also have to change the cam followers because there are some scratches and patches, ie the surface is not even any longer. I believe it is coming from the water.
I now fear that maybe the other cylinder bank might have some damage on the cam followers, but when I checked those inspection valves everything seemed ok (they were dry - just a bit of normal oil). The after-cooler on the right bank was completely dry - not any sign of water whereas the other side was absolutely soaked.
Do you think it is necessary to take off the head of the right bank , just to make sure there is no damage there ? As in the past, your advice is very much appreciated and many thanks
 
I'm not sure how to answer your question. If you have the head off and are changing liners, you are doing an immense amount of work! I mean, do you have all the special tools to do this? You have a proper ring compressor? Just curious.

This sounds like "localized" overheating and that is where I would first focus my attention. You may be absolutely correct about the cam followers being damaged by the coolant getting in the oil but if that is the case, how did the rod bearings look? Did you inspect any of the main bearings? If the water did damage the followers then I would suspect the right bank is damaged as well.

But, you need to find out why the engine seemed to overheat in that one area. You should try to do as much probing of the water jackets as possible while the head is off to see if you can locate any blockages.

I'm also confused about your description of the aftercooler being soaked on one side but dry on the other. Do you mean it is leaking on one side or that it seemed that it was immersed on one side? Are the engines mounted true vertical or are they tilted somewhat?

Make sure the connection at the rear of the block deck for the aftercooler adapter is firmly in place and that the 2 and 1/2" plug adapter under the front of the cooler is secure and not corroded. Some of these screw in and some are expansion plugs. The expansion type tend to rot out. The coolant enters the aftercooler from the rear adapter and returns to the left bank thermostat housing. Make sure that path is clear.

Sorry, more questions than answers.
 
Hello jgmo, thanks for your earlier reply. Indeed it was not easy to do all the work - some of the tools I have had order in the local workshops, they did that quite well, ie it worked. The trickiest part was to put in the oil rings into the liners
as they are very sensitive - I did destroy some...... because of the spacer underneath them. I have now ordered some more spare parts and will change the cam followers and put the head on the left-hand side on- after that I will make a
pressure test over one hour, if the test results are good I will put on the oil pan and start the engine (keep your fingers crossed !!) If the results are not good, I will then open the right-hand head and change o-rings, piston rings and cam followers. To be on the safe side, I have already ordered ALL of the spare parts. I hope it was only the left-hand bank. I have checked all the water connections and they all look good, nothing is blocked. I think the former owner pushed the engine too much at full speed and the sea water did not cool the engine water sufficiently on that side. Just my theory...
 
peter karl,

It is amazing what a guy can do when he loves his boat! I can't imagine how hard it must have been to get ANY rings in a kit without a good ring compressor. That's why I asked if you had one.

When I used to do these everyday, we would actually have to buy new compressors because we used ours enough that we would change the tolerances a couple of thousands and we would start breaking rings! You can't drop one either or it will quickly become junk.

You have my respect for tackling one of these in a boat like you are and I will be standing by hoping you have some good news to report when you are finished.

Good luck sir!
jimmyd
 
Hi Jimmyd,
yes, I love my boat, not so sure she loves me.... Last Friday I made a test ride, everything looked good ie. temperature, pressure etc. however if I go over 1800 rpm, then both engines start smoking more and make a light brown smoke, as up to now I am not too familiar with those engines, is it a good sign or not so good? At 1600 rpm the boat only makes 14 knots, I think that is a bit too slow. Before I made the test ride, I cleaned the props etc.
Once again, your advice is appreciated
Thanks
peter
 
I'm not sure if we ever discussed your boat in detail. Yes, 14 knots sounds slow but, not knowing the size of the vessel or the condition of the bottom or how heavily loaded it is it's hard to say, And, before I get you all ramped up on that subject, even if I had all that information, I would still be just guessing at what it should be and I'm not a "marine expert" by any stretch of the imagination. So, my real question about that is; how fast did it go before? Has the performance changed drastically since your sea trial for purchase?

One other thing I could only speculate about is the condition/quality of the fuel you are using. I know that in places other than the U.S. you can't always get good, uncontaminated, #2 diesel. These engines don't do well on anything but good quality fuel.

Bad fuel or overloading are the first things that come to mind when I read your post. The brown smoke that you mention reminds me of the high sulphur fuels we used to run back in the 1960's. When was the last time you checked for "bugs"? I imagine in Borneo, they can grow at a fairly rapid pace. If the tanks are not "polished" periodically, then trouble is just around the bend. Your primary fuel filters should tell that story.

It could also be that you are not getting enough boost. In what condition are the turbos and do you have a way to measure boost?

Remember, when one engine doesn't pull it's weight in a twin setup, then the load gets shifted to the other engine and that can make them BOTH look weak. You might start by determining if each engine is making approximately the same horsepower by driving the boat on one and then the other to eliminate that possibility.

That's all I can come up with at the moment. Think those things over and get back to me.
Regards,
jimmyd
 
Hi Jimmy,

it's been so time since I was last on this forum and you very kindly gave me some very sound advice. Once more I have the same problem with my STB engine.
In the meantime I've build in two new cylinder heads, and so on..... the engine ran fine, but I still have cooling water in the sump. Yesterday I took off the head
and the sump and on the stb side - next to the timing gear for the camp shaft - the water comes out. I only have this problem on the stb side. I pressurized the
water system. Without pressure it is just dropping slowly, with pressure lots of water comes out, but only on the upper corner where you can see the timing gear.
I do not know that causes this, do you have any idea ? Could it be a crack in the block?
Looking forward to your response and best regards,
Peter
 
Hi Peter,
Sorry to see that you are still having problems. You say that you took the head off. Do you mean the stbd head on the stbd engine? Did you pressurize the block with the head off? Your description of what is going on is confusing. If you see water coming out near the cam drive gear, then that sounds like an EXTERNAL leak. That could simply be a "rolled" water seal under the head or it could mean that the block or the head or both are warped. I DO hope you are using a straightedge and checking for flatness when you have the heads off.

If it is an external leak, then the only way (I would guess) that it could then enter the oil sump would be POSSIBLY running down the block and then through the crank vent tube assembly which is located at the rear of this engine. This would have to mean that there is a failure there as well. But, as I said before, from your description it is hard for me to determine what you are looking at exactly.
 
[FONT=&quot]Hi,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]thanks for your quick response. At first I took off the sump, then pressurized the water with the head on. The stb engine stb side - the head is brand new.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The water was dripping on the right end next to the camp shaft timing box. (I ran the engine with the new heads (both have been replaced) for about[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20 hours, before I opened them, as every day I found a very small amount of water in the oil sump. After running, it was a bit more. There was water[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]even when I did not run the engine). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Then I took off the head to check all sealings and gaskets and everything looked good.No sign of water going from the head to the block, then I checked[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the height of the liners and also straightedged the head and the block and put the head on with new gaskets and sealings. Again I pressurized it and the[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]water was still coming out on the same place. The water did not flow out in a constant way, some times just dripping and afte a while a lot of water, then [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]dripping again, seem like some kind of a cycle.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I also saw that there were water drops on the camp shaft gear. The amount of the water coming out in 24 hours is about 2 mugs, while the engine was[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]not running.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I hope the above clarifies it a bit.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Again thanks so much for your good advice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Peter[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]PS.: Come for a week's holiday to Borneo, accommodation and food/beverages free.[/FONT]






jgmo said:
Hi Peter,
Sorry to see that you are still having problems. You say that you took the head off. Do you mean the stbd head on the stbd engine? Did you pressurize the block with the head off? Your description of what is going on is confusing. If you see water coming out near the cam drive gear, then that sounds like an EXTERNAL leak. That could simply be a "rolled" water seal under the head or it could mean that the block or the head or both are warped. I DO hope you are using a straightedge and checking for flatness when you have the heads off.

If it is an external leak, then the only way (I would guess) that it could then enter the oil sump would be POSSIBLY running down the block and then through the crank vent tube assembly which is located at the rear of this engine. This would have to mean that there is a failure there as well. But, as I said before, from your description it is hard for me to determine what you are looking at exactly.
Click to expand...


[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 
Ahhh, a trip to BEAUTIFUL BORNEO! That would, INDEED, be wonderful! But I can't even get away for a long weekend. I have so many things that I am behind on that a vacation, even with such a generous offer as you have given me, would be almost impossible right now. Thank you for the thought though Peter. At least it may get me motivated enough to start planning a getaway in the future.

Ok, gotta stop day dreaming and back to business.

You are going to end up being the best Detroit wrench in the South Pacific ocean if you keep working on your boat like you do!

That water leak must be driving you nutz! Can't really enjoy Borneo as you should with that nagging at you night and day.

I don't know my friend. I take it that you are observing this leakage by the cam gear through having pulled the covers off and looking into the gear train. Is that correct?

The bad news is that there is a drilled coolant passageway in the block just under the camshaft bore. Yes, the block could be cracked at that point.

The good news is that there should be a threaded plug at the end of that drilling that COULD be leaking. That would be the best scenario. I don't remember specifically but you may even be able to see that plug through the hole in the cam gear wheel. Even if you had to pull the gear, it can be done without removing the transmission or flywheel housing....If you have adequate access and the proper gear puller.

It sounds as if the leak is bad enough that you should be able to pinpoint it once you have the right vantage point. However, it is always easier if you use coolant dye and ultraviolet lite if available.

The fact that the leakage appears to start slowly and then get worse and back again could be attributable to air bubbles in the block causing a sort of "vapor dam". I wouldn't worry too much about that at this point and would instead focus on finding the source. I hope this gives you a useful idea of how to proceed.

Thanks again for your offer of a visit to "paradise".
jimmyd
 
Hi Jimmy,

the offer for Borneo is an open one, should you decide to come here at a later date and of course it goes for 2 persons.

Today I removed the covers of the timing gear and there is NO plug, just a hole that looks like an oil supply behind the gear.
I made some pics which I'm attaching, taken from the sump upwards and I marked the pics showing the water coming out.
Maybe this gives a further clue.
Thanks again,
Peter
engine stb 18.3.13 001.JPGengine stb 18.3.13 002.JPG

jgmo said:
Ahhh, a trip to BEAUTIFUL BORNEO! That would, INDEED, be wonderful! But I can't even get away for a long weekend. I have so many things that I am behind on that a vacation, even with such a generous offer as you have given me, would be almost impossible right now. Thank you for the thought though Peter. At least it may get me motivated enough to start planning a getaway in the future.

Ok, gotta stop day dreaming and back to business.

You are going to end up being the best Detroit wrench in the South Pacific ocean if you keep working on your boat like you do!

That water leak must be driving you nutz! Can't really enjoy Borneo as you should with that nagging at you night and day.

I don't know my friend. I take it that you are observing this leakage by the cam gear through having pulled the covers off and looking into the gear train. Is that correct?

The bad news is that there is a drilled coolant passageway in the block just under the camshaft bore. Yes, the block could be cracked at that point.

The good news is that there should be a threaded plug at the end of that drilling that COULD be leaking. That would be the best scenario. I don't remember specifically but you may even be able to see that plug through the hole in the cam gear wheel. Even if you had to pull the gear, it can be done without removing the transmission or flywheel housing....If you have adequate access and the proper gear puller.

It sounds as if the leak is bad enough that you should be able to pinpoint it once you have the right vantage point. However, it is always easier if you use coolant dye and ultraviolet lite if available.

The fact that the leakage appears to start slowly and then get worse and back again could be attributable to air bubbles in the block causing a sort of "vapor dam". I wouldn't worry too much about that at this point and would instead focus on finding the source. I hope this gives you a useful idea of how to proceed.

Thanks again for your offer of a visit to "paradise".
jimmyd
Click to expand...
 
Hi Peter,
Yes, my apologies, the plug I was thinking of is an oil gallery plug and is below the cam bearing support.

That leak is VERY high up. I got out my block plugging chart and did find reference to a 1/4" square socket head plug up in that corner under the blower. I'm not sure if that is a coolant passage or not. There is also reference to a couple of 5/16" expansion plugs near the aftercooler coolant return passage. Not sure if any one of thos is your culprit though>

I worked on these engines every day for many years but that has been some time back now and memory is not much good on some of this stuff. I did many kit jobs and tune ups but, when it came to the blocks and heads, cleaning and machining was always contracted out. So, my experience with some of these "nuances" is fairly limited.

One other thing I ran across in my shop manual is that the head bolts have plugs under them to isolate the bolts from the coolant passages. I have never actually seen one of these and I can't tell you which head bolts have them and which do not. They apparently do leak though and require re-sealing with properly cured Loc-Tite. The reference to them warns of using other types of sealants so I guess there was a problem with that at one time. Like I said, my experience here is limited and I had never even heard of them before. Also, I would think that if one of those were leaking, it would become evident under the valve cover and coolant would be found coming out from under the head of the bolt in the offending hole.

I'm sorry but that's about all I've got on this one. Thanks again for your very generous offer and I would love to one day take you up on it if at all possible.

I surely do wish you luck it solving this mystery and, as always, I'll be standing by to hear from you on your success.
Regards,
jimmyd
 
jgmo said:
Hi Peter,
Yes, my apologies, the plug I was thinking of is an oil gallery plug and is below the cam bearing support.

That leak is VERY high up. I got out my block plugging chart and did find reference to a 1/4" square socket head plug up in that corner under the blower. I'm not sure if that is a coolant passage or not. There is also reference to a couple of 5/16" expansion plugs near the aftercooler coolant return passage. Not sure if any one of thos is your culprit though>

I worked on these engines every day for many years but that has been some time back now and memory is not much good on some of this stuff. I did many kit jobs and tune ups but, when it came to the blocks and heads, cleaning and machining was always contracted out. So, my experience with some of these "nuances" is fairly limited.

One other thing I ran across in my shop manual is that the head bolts have plugs under them to isolate the bolts from the coolant passages. I have never actually seen one of these and I can't tell you which head bolts have them and which do not. They apparently do leak though and require re-sealing with properly cured Loc-Tite. The reference to them warns of using other types of sealants so I guess there was a problem with that at one time. Like I said, my experience here is limited and I had never even heard of them before. Also, I would think that if one of those were leaking, it would become evident under the valve cover and coolant would be found coming out from under the head of the bolt in the offending hole.

I'm sorry but that's about all I've got on this one. Thanks again for your very generous offer and I would love to one day take you up on it if at all possible.

I surely do wish you luck it solving this mystery and, as always, I'll be standing by to hear from you on your success.
Regards,
jimmyd
Click to expand...


Dear Jimmy,

as, after all the work done and I did not find where the water comes from, I put everything together again. Started the engine without load and after 1 1/2 hours running at different rpms - no water to be found in the oil sump !!! Wonder engine.................. I took out the boat for a sea trial. Over 1100 rpm , the engine starts to smoke black and a lot. The smoke gets less over 1800-1900 rpm. After 1 1/2 hrs sea trial, I checked the oil the next morning and I found about 1/2 coffee cup of water in the oil sump. I think I can live with this amount. But what now concerns me more is all the black smoke. I guess that it may be one of the turbo chargers or something happened with the blower. I did not find any information about the air pressure in the air box if all systems are working properly. Do you have any idea ?

Greetings from Borneo
Peter
 
Hi Peter,
Well, the more you describe the water intrusion, the more it sounds like a cracked block. My experience with these engines having cracked blocks is very limited because I don't think there was ever a huge problem with them unless they were severely overheated to the point of being completely torn down and pressure checked before reuse.

But, the fact that the leak seems so inconsistent would indicate a fissure that expands and contracts with not much predictability. And that is somewhat indicative of a cracked block.

Your air box pressure is dependent on turbo A/R, injector size, RPM and inlet and exhaust restriction. The Series 92 shop manual lists air box pressures for all of these factors under "Engine Operating Conditions" section 13.2

Hope this was what you were looking for.

Regards,
jimmyd
 
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