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25 Mariner, needle sticking at start of season.

thudpucker

Regular Contributor
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I've had this motor/boat since the year after it was purchased. About 97 or 98.
The Previous owner let the carb sit in too much of the stuff that's supposed to keep your gas usable. Ever since then, the Needle sticks.

Every time I'm done with the trip or whatever, I pull the fuel hose off as I get close to the Beach. Then I run it dry.
That way I never forget to drain the carb and leave the Needle valve dropped off from the seat. It works fine during the season. Every time I start it and run it I have not trouble.
At the start of every season the Needle is stuck up into the seat.
Every 'first trip' I have to pull the inlet hose off the filter, and blow hard to loosen up that needle. Then it will start easy. Usually first or second pull.

I didn't use it at all last year. So the Needle is really stuck. and could not get the needle loose the normal way.

I have the Carb off now.
Looking at that Needle, I see the same thing B&S deals with in the newer carbs. A swollen rubber tip, sticking the needle.

Do you guys see anything I missed?

Maybe there is a little Stainless Spring wire to hold the Needle to the part that raises the needle?

One of our sponsors has a Needle for sale. :eek:
 
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I run my merc800 in a tank every couple of weeks,though I think that some places in the 'States that's not feasible.What about a metal tip instead of rubber?
 
We tried that in the B&S carbs. It only works marginally and not very often. We normally just change out the needle and it works.
I've struggled with this thing since 98 or so, every spring. I'm gonna fix it this time so I dont have to worry with it.

PS: Some of my Family Named O'mara were from somewhere in Ireland. The boat left from County Cork, so when the Boat got to New York, all the Irishmen, when asked where they came from, all said "County Cork!" (my Irish Grandfather told me that one:)
 
The problem,as far as I can see, is the ethanol that they add in the 'States.It seems to make a mess of rubber,expands and breaks it down.Not a problem that we have here,YET,but I'm sure it's coming.They are adding linseed oil to diesel.
So all I can say is change the needle every season,PIA,unless you can get a needle which is "ethanol proof".



O'Mara,That's a Southern Ireland name,at least most of the O'Maras that I know come from down South,and Cork is known as "The Rebel County",I see they went South in the 'States as well.:D I'm from Donegal,North of the country and all of my relations went to "Philly". That would be one of the"Northern" states,wouldn't it? I see a pattern emerging here.:D:D
 
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In 88 or so, every Fuel handling device was supposed to be "alcahol proof" but as everyone note's, it just aint so!

I went over to the Lawn Mower shop this afternoon, looking for two things.
One: a Needle that would work.
Two: A light Stainless spring I could use to tie the Needle to the "hammer" that seat's the needle. When the float drops, the hammer drops too. At that time, the light stainless spring should pull the Needle down with the hammer.

Is that an invention Idea? Hope the Mariner folks are listening and watching!
 
Using a clip to pull down the needle is NOT a new idea at all. This has been common practice for years in many carburetors.
 
Ethanol strikes again! Have heard of this many times. I run my OBs dead dry everytime I shut them off. That seems to eliminate that (and other) carb problems.

Jeff
 
If I could reproduce the smoothness of the surfaces of the Needle n' seat It'd go a long way toward avoiding the sticking.
The cost of Mfg keep the older Stainless on Brass Needle n' Seat from ever being used again.
The angle of the Needle/Seat meeting area and the two parts could be made differently to avoid 'Sticking' it seems to me!
I would like to try using a Needle made of the same stuff the Plastic Gas Cans are made of.
My Body parts are too Old to be monkeying around with little tiny stuff like that. But it sure sounds like a good thing to try.

Also a Larger and flatter surface would be worth a try as well.
 
I can't seem to find my Motor listed anywhere! Not on anybody's parts books!
Any Ideas for me?

Mariner 25M Ser. Number. 06522078 (It's a 1997 25 Manual) I sure wish it was Electric start!:rolleyes:
 
Delrin, a product of DuPont, was /is used in older manual parking meter clocks for the jewels on which the balance wheel would rotate back-n-forth for years and never wear out or need lubrication as the old synthetic jewels required. It is impervious to all chemicals. and seems that it would make an excellent tip for a needle or seat...JMT
 
You are correcekect! I'ts indeed "OG...."
And maybe the product your thinking of is Delrin. We used a lot of it too.
And yes I'll buy from here, but I need a little Adult supervision. I couldn't find what I wanted this morning.

PS: I found a spring in my stuff and fixed the needle so it follows the part the float works up n' down.

Link me up with the advertisers on our site that need my business and I'll really like you!
Dick
 
When you run 'em dry after using them, the needle drops away from the seat so it doesn't stick.

Think about it!

Jeff
 
Yessireeebob.
I thinkedboutit! When I thinkedboutit like you want me to thinkedboutit I thinkedboutit long enough to get hungry and the danged thing was still not working like it should have.

I know what your saying. That never happened though.
The only reason I can think of is something that happens after I take that fuel line off the engine.
Some how, air pressure maybe, that needle gets stuck upwards, into the seat.

It's setting in the Sunlight now with the tank hooked up. in a day or two I'll go try out my invention.

Today, the Mercury guy told me not to run it outta gas. That leaves too many places where the "Phases" of fuel can separate and then this 'clogging' or 'gluing' can take place in many parts of the system.
 
..."the Mercury guy told me not to run it outta gas. That leaves too many places where the "Phases" of fuel can separate and then this 'clogging' or 'gluing' can take place in many parts of the system. "

There's a slight problem with his reasoning: Since the gas is burned up (and the rest evaporated) there is nothing left to "Phase" separate or do any other deviltry.

More to think about!

Jeff
 
Think about this.
Gas in a closed system does not evaporate. But it will separate into it's various parts if let set long enough.
According to the Merc guy, 60-90 days is enough.

I started a 32 Plymouth that sat in a garage for 15 years. Same gas he had in it when he last parked it.
That was in the days before additives other than T-Lead in the mix.

Any portal exposed to Air will allow an O2 exchange. That's why most Carbs have problems in the Idle or hi speed ports in the throats of the Carbs.

In the loopy fuel lines, some of the heavier stuff will settle into the bottom of the loops. At the first start after a long rest, the 'new' charge of fuel coming from the tank has to move all that sludge along in front of it or mixed with it.
That's easy enough in larger areas such as the fuel line.
But when you get into smaller areas, the 'new' charge cannot penetrate.
So those tiny jet passages have to be manually cleaned.

The needle sticking is similar but not quite the same. Chemically the tip of that needle wants to be in that seat.
So I made a mechanical change to clear the problem of those little itsy bitsy critters getting together in the dark places of the Carb.

We've never had an Automotive based Chemist (SAE guy) explain some of these things in simple layman's language.
The whole industry needs that kind of input.
 
I just simply run fuel out of the carburetors when done --------Keeps carburetors CLEAN !!--------Listen to real mechanics not service advisors that are looking to impress with their " book knowledge " ------Many shops are on the take from what I read on these forums.
 
Yes we SHOULD run them outta gas. Pull the fuel line and let them run at hi Idle till they die. Crank it a few times to make sure it's dead too. I've been doing that since the folks told me to, way back in the late 40's.

Other than the mouthpiece at Mariner/Merc, the only logical we shouldn't run them outta gas is that last few seconds of Oil starvation in the Crank case.

All these chemicals in the fuel is a new thing. I seriously doubt we'll ever hear from the Chemists at the Oil company or the Toady's and Drones in the FED.
We will have come up with a layman's answer before the people that know will even muster enough integrity to slobber on their tie!

I have had some trouble with fuel pumps and dried cracked fuel lines. I sure hope the OEM's don't quit making kits for the fuel pumps. We'll never beat that problem out here in layman's land.
 
Well said. I've yet to see a carb that was 'sealed'. Not only can't that work (the fuel level settings require a vent) how would the engine get its gas!

The bowls of my Carter AFB 4 barrels were virtually empty after sitting a week (after running--this is an inboard boat application). I do not run them dry--too awkward--yet the bowls were dry anyhow.

Gas evaporates--quickly!--especially when sitting in a warm carb.

Jeff
 
I drive an early 70's Australian Chrysler and it is fitted with a Carter AFB 4 barrel, if it is allowed to sit for a few days the fuel evaporates to the fuel pump at least and takes a lot to wind over. My poor starter motor cops a hiding. I guess fitting an electric fuel pump that primes the carb on turning the key to ON would solve that issue. Back to boating - is there a reason for not using electric fuel pumps in outboards? - I'm guessing space could be a limiting fact. It's not hard to fit an aftermarket fuel pump to cars.
 
Excellent point! Tradition, I suppose, is the reason why they're virtually all vacuum pumps. Earlier ones used the dangerous pressure tank system.

Jeff
 
Nothing dangerous about an early style pressure tank. Very simple and reliable.------Probably safer than the pressurized fuel systems on the new HI-TECH outboards.-----------And Thudpucker , your point about oil starvation when a motor runs out of fuel means that you do not fully understand how a 2 stroke is lubricated.--------The oil that is in the motor does not instantly disappear when fuel supply stops !!!!!
 
I knew that RO.
That is one major difference between expensive (OMC) oils and the cheaper oils. It actually happens with the Cheaper oils.

Anyway I've been doing that almost all my life and have never lost a bearing yet.
Now, because of the newer fuels, I'm going to start leaving the system full and see how that works.
 
Most outboards will run with a completely dead battery, the ignition is self energized by the magneto.----------An electric pump will not operate with a dead battery
 
Metal needle valve sound great minus the sealing fuel from entering carb when float bowl is full!!!
Running engine out of fuel is a great idea to help remove all the extra fuel pull the choke when starts dying

Ive been experimenting with keeping the carb full all the time (although the expanding can be a factor) I find when I'm cleaning carb there is a yellow sticky varnish left from the last of the fuel drying out which is another cause of sticky float valves and clogged idle and main circuits carbs are vented so the fuel eventually evaporates and leaves the ethanol and what water it absorbed in carb. to plug every thing up the next time u hit that primer ball.
So far keeping it full has been great for me I jus hit that primer ball every other week it will squeeze a little then stop saying the fuel entered the carb and now is full What do u guys think any one try this?????
 
Not so. Ethanol evaporates along with the gas. That gook you see is what remains after SLOW evaporation of fuel left in the motor! Run it dry every time you shut down for the day, and the heat left in the motor will evaporate what's left.

Jeff
 
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