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BF130 - Makes rapid stream of clicks but won't turn over.

interloper

New member
I have Honda BF130. When I turn the ignition key, I hear a rapid stream of clicks, but the engine doesn't turn over. So far, I have done the following:

1. Replaced the battery.
2. Verified the engine isn't frozen by manually turning the fan wheel at the top.
3. Replaced the starter motor.

What should I try next?
 
Ouch! The starters are not cheap for these things.

First, when you turn your key switch to on, do your warning lights come on and warning horn buzz for about two seconds?
Also, can you hear the fuel pump in your vapor separator running for the same two seconds? You will need someone next to the vapor separator to hear the pump.

If you did not hear the fuel pump, then you could have fuel pump or main relay issues...which I will hold off for now.

If you can answer yes to the lights, buzzer and pump then try the following.

Remove the small wire that goes between the starter relay and the starter. It is a small white one.. the one that just pushes onto a connector. If you jumper from positive 12v to that small terminal on the starter that the white wire was attached, the motor should crank over. There will be a small spark when you touch the terminal, but there is not much current. You do not need a large wire to do the jump.

Jumping to the starter takes everything out of the picture but battery, cables, connections and starter. If it still does not crank, assuming your new starter is good and the battery is good, that would leave the cables. They have been known to deteriorate inside the insulation, especially around salt water.

Give that a try and see what you find.

Mike
 
^^ Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I carried my jumper cables out to the boat this morning. I decided to start with the theory that the ground is bad. I connected one of the jumper cables between the negative battery terminal and the base of the starter. I tried the key, and engine started to spin. Now, I have to determine whether there is a bad electrical connection, or a bad cable.

I don't know why I didn't think to try the ground experiment before. The battery was $73, but it was overdue for replacement. The starter motor was $118 with shipping, plus I spent about another $30 on tools before I found something that could reach the back bolt. It's still cheaper than a visit to the mechanic.

Actually, I would have been happy to have a mechanic do the work, but the boat is sitting on a lift, so I'd have to get it towed to a boat ramp, or find a mechanic willing to make a house call.
 
If you can not find a bad connection then most likely the wire inside the insulation of the cable has been eaten up and has only a few strands left to pass a small amount of current. So, you may not see anything external to the cable.

Mike
 
Okay, I am on to bigger and better problems. With the starter body connected to the negative battery post via a jumper cable, the engine turns over very reluctantly. There are perhaps three short surges of turning over, then the starter stops. By that time, the jumper cable is very hot. During a couple of these starting attempts, the engine actually came briefly to life, but died after a few seconds.
 
That does not sound good. You probably already did, but make sure the jumper cable is connected securely.

It that does not help, I would pull the spark plugs and the safety landyard and try to turn the motor by hand. You will have to remove the top plastic cover to get access to the crank. You will probably need a large wrench to turn it. Turn it clockwise only so you do not mess up your impeller.

Mike
 
Well, I had the boat towed from my dock to a boat ramp. (No charge! You can't beat the Gold Plan.) Then I put it on a trailer and took it to the nearest dealer. The dealer said it was the cheapest repair of the week. He snipped off the end of the negative battery cable, put on a new connector, and reattached it to the battery. I am a bit dubious that this resolves the whole problem. The boat started immediately when I put it back in the water at the boat ramp, but it failed to restart when I got back to my dock until after I had the battery on a charger for about two hours. The engine has since restarted twice without problems. I had left the depth sounder running for about 15 minutes with the engine off prior to the one failed attempt to start the engine. I am dubious that the depth sounder would have drawn enough current to deplete the battery during that time. I am debating replacing all the cables between the battery and the engine plus the battery selector switch just in case there is an intermittent electrical problem due to corrosion in the cables or the switch.
 
Agree that the sounder should not drain the battery in 15 minutes. Replacing the cables is a good idea given you are in a saltwater environment. But, also keep in mind that the starter relies on its ground through the bolt on to the engine. You may also want to remove the starter again (I know that's a pain) and clean up the mating surfaces. A film of oil or grease on the mating surfaces could be the source of your problems.
 
I am having the exact same issue on my 130 and have a suggestion/question. Could the issue be in the starter relay (formally known as the starter magnetic switch) which feeds ignition signal to the starter unit? I have passed the initial tests outlined by hondadude (lights, buzzer, fuel pump, battery and starter motor all OK) but still getting just the loud rapid clicks versus cranking the engine over. Any help much appreciated.
 
Run a test wire from your battery positive to the smaller red wire on the starter. Touch the wire from the battery to that terminal. You should hear a loud click when the solenoid closes. Do this several times. The solenoid should not get hot. Warm, maybe, but not hot.
 
Just because a solenoid clicks does not mean its good. Over time the contacts inside can burn and they do not make good contact.
 
I spoke again with the gentleman who runs the repair shop that worked on my engine. He was fairly confident that the problem was corrosion on the connector to the negative battery terminal. He had left the old connector on the boat, and it did look pretty bad. I had tried scraping and sanding the connector before taking the boat to the repair shop, but there was still a lot of corrosion present. We discussed further actions that might be taken. This includes cleaning all the cable connections, including those to the battery selector switch, and cleaning the seating surfaces for the starter. The next course of action would be to replace the cables and the selector switch. The battery is in a seat box that has a leaky hatch. I really need to rig a plastic cover over the top of the battery to keep any rainwater or condensation from dripping on it.
 
Just for the amusement of those reading this thread, the following are some photos from the tow boat operation. My boss has provided her tentative approval for the purchase a small get-home engine that would allow me to get to the ramp without being towed, but the towing insurance makes much better financial sense.
0504120954b.jpg0504121001.jpg0504121115.jpg
 
Interloper....that makes perfect sense to clean (really clean) all of the connectors. A wire wheel on a drill sometimes makes this task a little easier. The clicking problem normally is caused by bad battery, bad wiring, or dirty or loose connections.

Worldcat....yes it could be a bad starter relay, but generally the relay will just click once when you operate the key switch to start. The chatter of the relay, indicates that it is losing voltage when it operates, then gets the voltage back when it quits operating....then it operates again, loses voltage, quits operating, gets voltage....etc etc etc.
Thus the chattering.

Generally, the cause for it loosing power is the thing that the relay is trying to operate (like the starter), needs more current than the bad connections will allow to flow (or a bad battery). The starter does not have enough current to operate and the high current draw causes a voltage drop at the relay, which then turns off the relay. It could even be a frozen starter.

There are many approaches to this type of problem, but I find the easiest, is to do what chawk suggests. Although, I am not sure what he means by the small red wire. On the 130, there is a white wire that goes from the starter solenoid to a connector on the starter. You can pull that wire off. Then take a wire and just touch from the main battery terminal on the starter to that little spade tip that you took the white wire from. Just do this briefly....there will be a spark and hopefully the starter will crank. If you use a remote starter switch, it is not so alarming, when the starter jumps.

If it does not crank, then you have isolated the problem to either the starter or the main battery cable, their connections, or the battery. Unless you have a battery switch, there is nothing else in the circuit.

Mike
 
Chattering solenoid, at least to me, is usually always associated with low voltage...usually a battery problem but not always. The solenoid itself isn't getting enough voltage to stay engaged and thus chatters. So, there's NO WAY there's enough voltage available to turn the engine over. It doesn't matter if the points in the solenoid are completely missing, it should still stay engaged since it is just an electromagnetic switch.

The first thing I would do when encountered with this is to carefully inspect the battery or batteries. 99.9% of the time the problem lies there or close to there and simply gets overlooked. "I checked the batteries" can mean just about anything, depending on who's doing the talking. If it ain't the battery, then it's a connection to the battery. The beauty about connections-THAT YOU CAN GET TO-is that they can also be checked using a technique called "voltage drop"

If you have ever used a digital voltmeter to check the voltage across the posts of a battery, then you already know how to use the probes to "voltage drop" check each and every connection THAT YOU CAN ACCESS. I don't expect everyone to understand what I'm talking about because it's hard to be clear on a write in forum like this but I will be happy to answer any questions about what I might confuse you about.

Let's look at checking the battery first:
When you hook the voltmeter across the POS. and NEG. posts, you are performing a sort of "voltage drop" test. If you get a reading of 12.6vdc then what the meter is telling you is that there is a POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE between those two points, on that battery, of 12.6vdc. This is the specified voltage of a fully charged battery. A potential difference or reading of 12vdc would tell you that you have a battery that is approximately 25% discharged. 12.6v good...12.0v not good! Most people don't know that!

OK, now let's look at what I've been calling "voltage drop":
At each and every connection, starting with the battery cables at the battery posts or terminals, in each and every circuit, there will be a very small amount of voltage that is lost or "dropped". This is because there are no PERFECT connections, no matter how clean you get them. We can measure how much voltage is lost or dropped with the voltmeter at each of those connections that we can get to. But, unlike the battery, we WILL NOT get a reading unless we ACTIVATE the circuit. This voltage drop testing must be done while the circuit is in use. When there is no electrical flow through that connection, then there can be no drop.

Try this; Connect your positive voltmeter lead to the battery positive post. Connect the negative voltmeter lead to the end of the positive cable where it connects to the positive post. With the meter set to the DC VOLTS scale you should get a reading of 0volts. Makes sense doesn't it? NOW, with the leads still in place, have someone turn something on. Bilge pump-lights-or crank the engine. You will get a reading on the voltmeter as soon as that item is activated. THAT reading is the voltage being lost or dropped at that particular connection.

It is supposed to be acceptable to see no more than 25millivolts (.025vdc) at each connection but I prefer to see less. More like .010vdc or less is a good connection. If you see more than .025vdc at any connection while doing this, then it needs to be disassembled and cleaned.

We can also use the voltage drop to identify wiring in a circuit that has too much resistance. All wire will cause a voltage drop. The amount of drop will depend on the size of the wire, the length of the wire and the condition of the wire. Because of this voltage drop concept, we can find battery cables that may be internally corroded.

A battery cable is made up of many wires twisted together. If a few of the wires break inside the insulation, we will still see that the cable will conduct electricity. An ohmmeter will not tell you if almost all of the strands in a cable are severed since it only needs one of those strands to be intact to conduct the small test voltage that the meter sends. But, when your starter tries to draw 200amps or more through that cable, it just can't deliver because that one remaining wire has too much resistance. A voltage drop test would tell you that the cable is bad.

If anyone has any further interest in this, just ask.
 
Distinguished Contributors: I am new to this forum and have never seen one that is faster or more informative than this and all input so far is helping narrow down my problem (and maybe Interlopers too). A little more background and another question or two if you can bear with me. I have a 2001 26' Worldcat with twin 130s, twin batteries and a battery switch. This allows me to experiment with questionable bolt on parts from one engine to the other while troubleshooting prior to buying replacement parts on a trial and error basis. I did this to determine that the starter and solenoid unit were OK as I switched them from starboard (the non starting engine) to port. The port engine fired right up with either starter unit and the strbd engine with neither. As to the battery issue, I used a new one on the strbd side so I think the battery is sound. Also, the tilt and trim motor works strongly and smoothly. I still used the on position on the battery switch one time to add power to the strb side - still no start just clicks - and then turned off the switch and used high quality jumper cables between port and starboard in case the battery switch was bad. Same result. None of these steps would address the cable and connection issues outlined by several of you, and I too will use the jgmo guide right after Memorial Day.

In addition to that, I do still have a follow up to hondadude regarding the white wire to the solenoid. You stated that if the engine does not crank after jumping to the spade tip then it is the starter or the cable. Since it is not the starter then I will focus solely on the cables and connections following this test if there is still clicking but no cranking. The question: if jumping to the spade tip (which is connected via the white wire to the relay) DOES cause the engine to crank does that isolate the issue to the starter relay? I do not think the main relay can be an issue because the fuel pump and tilt/trim all work fine.

Finally, to Interloper: thanks for starting this discussion and your timing was parfect. Also, you probably figured it out by now and hence the new tools, but for anyone else trying to get at that back bolt on the starter it is fairly simple if you remove the starter relay (two 10 MM bolts aligned vertically near the starter) and move it aside. You will then have a straight shot from above to insert a 14 MM socket on a 6-8 inch extension right down on the bolt.

Thanks again to all and it looks like several of us are Chesapeake Bay boaters ( I am in White Stone, VA.) Sadly, I doubt we will be running into jgmo as California is a bit of a run from here.
 
Hi Chawk! That's not all the story but it sometimes gets a guy on the right track.

Worldcat,

I give you four stars for what you've done already. Normally, I would tell a guy that, just because it's a new battery doesn't mean it's a good battery. But, you seem to have more than checked and cross checked that issue.

If jumping the spade tip on the relay causes the starter to crank then I'm sure Mike would tell you that would mean it COULD be the relay but not necessarily ONLY be the relay. It tells you that the HIGH CURRENT portion of your system is ok and the problem lies in the CONTROL section.

You see, you are working with two separate circuits when you start the engine.

You turn on a key or switch (or...keyswitch for lack of a better term), which is wired to a button (or a set of contacts in the switch), which is wired to the start solenoid and the solenoid is either bolted or wired to ground. That is one circuit. It is called the low current circuit by the engineers that came up with it. It is like this to keep human beings from coming into contact with high current and to save huge quantities of large wiring and giant switches. This "controls" the operation by simply creating a temporary electromagnet (the solenoid) to cause a set of high current points inside the solenoid to come together and create....

.... a path for current to flow from the battery, through the large cable, through the starter motor and then...and this is really important... and what trips a lot of us up quite frequently...BACK THROUGH GROUND to the battery. This is the other, COMPLETELY SEPARATE circuit. OR...CIRCLE! You MUST think of all electrical circuits as a CIRCLE that cannot be broken or there is no work. To ignore the ground side of the system is to set yourself up for failure to find the problem almost 75% of the time.

For some reason, we all, myself included, have a sort of mental block that we must overcome that leads us to think only about the POSITIVE portion of the CIRCLE. But, we cannot ignore the ground or it just will not work.

Anyway, if you jump the spade and the engine cranks, you have a control circuit failure and it should be fairly simple to go back and check:
The power to ignition.
The power from ignition to separate start button or switch (if it has one)
The power from momentary device..button-switch-key switch-whatever to the solenoid
The solenoid itself..usually done with an ohmmeter.
AND last but certainly not least, the ground than needs to be provided for the solenoid. If it is a separate wire, then that portion of the circuit needs to be scrutinized for good, clean connections and wire integrity. If it is through the contact of the mounting surface to the starter, then you are looking for paint or grease or anything that might form an insulator between the two or contamination in the mounting bolt threads.

You may use the "voltage drop" technique at each of these components and connection interfaces to isolate a high drop item or area. Note that switches and buttons are allowed up to .050vdc drop but I prefer that they drop no more than .025vdc or I replace them.

The electrical law (Kirchhoffs law) governing voltage in a circuit says that all of the voltage applied to a circuit must be dropped in a circuit speaks mostly to the LOAD in the circuit. If all things were perfect then ALL 12.6v in this circuit would drop across the solenoid as it is the item, or load, we are implementing. But, as I pointed out earlier, some voltage drop is expected throughout the circuit to allow for switches, buttons, connections and wiring. But, a maximum of 1vdc is all that is allowed for any circuits ancillary wiring.

So, if you do any voltage drop tests, write down the results of each test. Remember to activate the circuit before testing. Add all of the results of your test and if you find more than 1vdc total drop in that circuit's wiring, know that it may not work reliably.

Also, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, know that one of the real beauties of the voltage drop test is that it works for the ENTIRE circuit. That means that you can use it to find faults in the ground side connections and cabling just as easily as you can on the positive side. DON'T ignore this! As stated before, ground is just as important as power.

I hope this helps you find your gremlins.

Disclaimer: this was all written while my 5 year old grandson had some business he wanted to discuss so please excuse any spelling or typos.
 
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I know, I know!

I knew it was a "bit much" even as I was doing it but I just can't seem to stop myself! I just never learned how to explain something in a few words, especially my love for voltage drop testing. So, you guys will just have to rub your sore eyes and try to forgive me.
 
Jim and Mike et. al - Thanks again and my eyes weren't sore at all. In fact, I plan to print off these pages and staple them into my repair manuals for future reference on both marine and auto applications (and believe me I can use the info as I am currently restoring a 1973 MGB and we all know how great Lucas electronics were). Anyway, I am now confident that during the week after Memorial Day I will get my 130 humming and I will give a final report back to the thread upon my return. Eric.
 
worldcat,
Just sold my 1975 Triumph Trident that I purchased off the showroom floor. I can tell you after owning a Lucas wired vehicle with a "Positive Earth" charging system for 37 years that what they say about Lucas is true. They did, indeed, invent darkness.
 
Jimmy,

That's definitely a keeper. I cut and pasted it to my "How to" files, with full attribution, of course. Thanks for taking the time.
 
Wrap up - As many of you predicted the issue was in the power supply/grounding system. The siamese cable from the battery to the engine was routed through a flexible conduit coming through the transom to the engine. The transom end was attached to a sleeve but the engine end was open. As a result, water collected in the low bend of the conduit and eventually turned into a black primordial ooze that ate up the cable. Cut out the bad portion of cable and problem solved. Thanks again for your contributions (and the MG links, jgmo). I now know where to turn in the event of future issues with my hondas.
 
Worldcat, Hi and welcome. Did you pull the cable out of the flexible condit to fix it? I too have a Worldcat with 130 Hondas on it and found this forum friendly with a great group of helpful guys. I really enjoy visiing the site for solutions to my problems. Stan
 
Like the Toys R us song goes...I'll not give up, I'll never give u....er, wait a minute...THAT'S not how it goes!
Well, anyway, congratulations on hangin' in there and geetin' er done!
 
Stan - That would probably be the proper way to do it but there is a lot of stuff running through that conduit so I took the quick and easy way to get there and CAREFULLY sliced the conduit open and removed it. If you are having no issues yet then one preventative measure that is easy and better looking is to find the low point on the conduit in the engine well and cut a couple diamond shaped holes or a 3-4 inch slice in the bottom of the conduit to let any entering water escape. Whatever you may choose to do (other than removing all the connections from the engine and sliding the conduit off) be very careful in any drilling or cutting of the conduit. Inside of it are the high tension cables, the shift controls, the fuel line and the engine control cables. Cutting into any of these will result in a whole new set of problems that you might not even notice right away (except for cutting the fuel line which be noticed pretty fast). Based on my experience of having water in both of my conduits, and simply looking at the open end design leading to a low loop, I cannot see how some water could not be entering these conduits. There may be a part from either World Cat or Honda or aftermarket that would join the conduit to the engine entry point and seal it up to prevent water entry but I haven't gotten that far and may never as I plan to simply put the conduit back on with the cut side down and a few white cable ties to keep it loosely together. That will protect the cabling from sun light damage but still allow any entering water to seep from the slice. Take care and good boating.
 
Thanks for all the help. The shop replaced the connector at the battery end of the ground cable, and that fixed the problem briefly. I am about to disconnect all the cables again and go through another cleaning exercise. I am tempted to use a product by Ideal Industries called NOALOX on the connectors, which is advertised to inhibit corrosion and enhance conductivity. Does any member of this forum have experience with this product? There are some other products advertised to do the same, including Lubrimatic Electrical Contact Grease and MG Chemicals Carbon Conductive Grease. Are any of these recommended? The ultimate answer might be to replace the cables. I might have the shop do that the next time I have the boat serviced.
 
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