Honda 225 intermittent starting problem

[hondatic]

I have a 2002 Honda 225 with very low hours. In the past two days it has begun to have instances where it will not turn over when key switch is turned to start. Sometimes if you move the switch and hold it for a second or two it will catch and then start normally. It seems obvious there is an electrical glitch somewhere but I would like to know where to go next.

I have done the following:
=Jumped power to S terminal on solenoid, solenoid engages and engine starts fine.

=tested S terminal with key switch turned to start when nothing happens, no voltage reading at the terminal.

=Swapped key switch panel harness with my other engine to see if problem is in panel switch, same symptoms with other harness. Other engine starts instantly on that harness. Cannot stretch wires from switch harness on bad start motor to other motor to test in reverse.

Currently I was able to get six good instant starts after a period with no luck and then intermittent luck.

When the starting is in the intermittent phase, the solenoid seems to chatter when power finally reaches it so it seems there is some interruption in the voltage. It almost sounds like a solenoid when voltage is low but I have good voltage to power post on solenoid and good heavy cables with new ends.

Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thank you

[mikestephsasha]

i also have a 2002 honda 225. you might want to check the main relay.In the old relays the wires on the inside can corrode , i think there was a recall or service bulletin. Last summer my engine wouldn't start a couple of times , i would turn key and nothing. then try again and it would start. Then one time I was out and the engine just stopped. I went to start it and it turned over and started but starter never disengaged, i shut off with key and the engine stopped but starter kept going. I had to kill the power at the battery to get it to stop. using the shop manual I was able to trouble shoot the main relay for continuity. I found the problem and replaced main relay ..no problems since.

may not be your cause but might be something to check.

[hondatic]

I have a spare engine that knocks, I took the front end apart today and found the main relay at the top of the bracket, will swap it with the one on the engine that doesn't turn over reliably tomorrow, I expect that is the problem. These engines were little used in florida but are 10 years old so corrosion is pretty likely.

The starting gets more reliable when the engine is warm or after you stop and start a few times in a row. After a long sit it takes a few seconds to get it to catch and then turn over. Since the exciter wire to the solenoid comes out of this relay, it seems logical to start there and work back.

Thanks for the reply.

[hondatic]

Changed out the main relay on the motor. Symptoms remain exactly the same as before.

Attempt to start engine after sitting since yesterday, nothing when key was turned to "start", tried several times holding the key at "start" for a few seconds, nothing.

Got my voltmeter and went to the back to test voltage at S terminal on solenoid while my wife turned the key to "start", no voltage at first then the solenoid engaged and starter turned and started motor.

Turned engine off, let it set for a minute and turned key to "start" position, after 2 second delay, the starter engaged and motor started.

Repeated several times and the delay to get starter to engage after key turned to "start" was between 0 and 1 second.

When I turned the Battery switch on and was by the motor after changing the relay, I could hear a faint hum/whine coming from somewhere on the engine. Does the ECM make noise when power is put to it? The key switch was not turned to on position yet I don't think.

Didn't sound mechanical, sounded like an electronic device humming with power to it.

Any help on where to go next would be appreciated.

[hondatic]

I also disconnected all of the electrical connectors and sprayed them out with electrical contact cleaner and blew them out with air. All looked good, clean and shiny before and after cleaning.

[chawk_man]

I've never heard a humming noise coming from my 224 when power was on and key switch off.

Overall, it sounds like you may have an intermittent grounding problem, which are a b___h to track down. If you have a single black wire going to your ecm, check the connectors, and check the resistence in the wire - it should be near zero.

Is you tilt-trim motor working okay and responding immediately to the up-down switch? Did you clean the three large pin connectors going into the ecm? Pull each fuse and clean the contacts, including the large fuse above the fuse panel. Remove your battery terminals and clean them and the battery posts thoroughly. Then re-test.

[hondatic]

Chawk,

thanks for the reply, as I lay there this morning thinking of other causes, grounding came to mind. All of my battery wires, batteries, connections are brand new. As I looked at the wiring diagram I tried to figure out if there was any control of start signal to solenoid through ecm. It looks like the signal from key switch goes directly to the coil in the relay that sends signal to terminal S on solenoid so if I can measure continuity through key switch in "start" position to the pin in the plug that sends that signal into the main relay, a short in the harness should be eliminated?

I will remove all grounds, polish and replace when it quits raining. The ground terminals to the right of the array of plugs attached to tilt relay and main relay have rusty bolts and are very dirty, may be a problem for sure. Any electrical glitch in something so expensive makes me nervous.

Tilt trim is perfect, no delays or problems at all. If one of the ground points is for the tilt/trim and the other for main relay that might make the cleaning choice easier. The symptoms are very similar to times on an auto when a battery terminal is loose but when it does catch the starter is strong.


I'll let you know how it goes.

[chawk_man]

I violated my first rule of engine diagnostics - simple things first!

Could you just have corroded contacts in your key switch? Cut off the battery, spray WD-40 or contact cleaner in the key hole, then exercise the key switch to start position a bunch of times. Then test again.

[hondatic]

Key switch works fine to start the other engine. Peeled open the connection between the main cable and the extension cable connecting the controls and instruments to the engine. found what I think will be the problem, one wire had been spliced to jumper around the 14 pin connector and it was pretty much corroded apart. connector is very full of grime and white grit, terminals are oxidized as well.

The bad wire was the black and white wire that feeds the main relay the signal to activate the solenoid.

Plan to clean it up, cut back to clean wire and then re-splice temporarily to see if fix is in. Will also be replacing the entire harness with fresh.

Testing the main relay as described in the Honda manual was easy and it was perfect on all three internal relays.

[chawk_man]

BINGO! Sounds like you found the problem. Let us know.

[hondatic]

Cut out all wires from extension harness plug and cleaned the ends and then put them in heat shrink butt connectors. Engine starts normally again. Every time I have one of these things I learn a lot about Hondas. Really just wanted to learn how to run it but oh, well... Thanks for the help on this topic everyone.

[aristakat]

Cut out all wires from extension harness plug and cleaned the ends and then put them in heat shrink butt connectors. Engine starts normally again. Every time I have one of these things I learn a lot about Hondas. Really just wanted to learn how to run it but oh, well... Thanks for the help on this topic everyone.

I feel your pain I was same way