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BF130 Fuel Pump problem?

c-level

Contributing Member
I feel like a broken record. I'm still having problems with my bf130 and it is definitely fuel related. The problem is when it is under load it will begin to lean out and will stall. There are no problem if I take it out of gear and increase the revs to 4k rpm, it only happens when it is under load and then it cuts out. There are no sounding alarms when this happens.

I have replaced:
fuel fill/vent hose
feed hoses from gas tank to water separator
put new water separator filter in it and lubed o rings.
replaced primer bulb with johnsons bulb
replaced low and high pressure fuel filters inside the engine
replaced vapor separator filter

The bulb will get very firm when I pump it (johnson bulb) but when the engine begins to stall if we pump the bulb it will be okay for a few minutes. Sometimes the engine will correct itself and will run fine for 15 minutes and then might need a few pumps. Since I need to pump the bulb would that indicate that the fuel pump is bad? Is it possible for the fuel pump to only act up on higher rpms during demand and not during start up? The motor starts up and idles fine.

I have run a clear piece of tubing from the external fuel/water separator and can see air coming out a bit where it leaves the filter. When I pump it hard the air goes through the bulb and disappears, but when the engine is running under load it does not appear to have any air going through the line, it stays on top where it just leaves the filter. Is that normal?

As a last resort I'm going to replace the entire external fuel/water separator and sight bowl with a new one since the sight bowl is old. I am also going to change the spark plugs and thermostats even though it seems to be a fuel feed problem and not a spark or temperature problem.

I'm scared to go to the dealer because when I mentioned the problems he said that it could be a bad fuel rail that needed to replaced or a bad head and when he quoted me the price it was very high. I know my engine had a replaced head under warranty before I bought it. I'm skeptical to take it in because the problem is sporadic and I think they will just keep changing pieces out or charge me to have the fuel rail or fuel pump changed out and I'm not sure exactly what the problem is.
 
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The air bubbles are not normal and there should not be any. It's supposed to be a closed system from the fuel tank to the fuel rail. Good idea to replace the fuel-water seperator and sight bowl. Find the reason for the air bubbles and you likely have found the reason for your stall outs.

Does your pump-up bulb get flat or weak when the stallouts occur? If so, open your fuel filler cap and see if the problem goes away. You could have a blocked or partially blocked air vent to the fuel tank. It's a common problem. Alternatively, you could have a partially blocked or deteriorated fuel pick-up tube in your fuel tank. Most have a screen on the end of the pick-up tube inside the tank. Disconnect the fuel line coming from the tank and blow low pressure air back into the tank to clear a possible blockage there. That air will escape through the fuel tank breather vent. You may want to inspect your pick up tube in the tank. There should be an access hatch on your deck that will allow you to remove it and check or replace.

If all that doesn't help, I would borrow or buy a good CLEAN 6 gallon tank with its own pump up bulb, fill with fresh fuel, and hook it directly into the onboard fuel filter. If the problem goes away, you know it is somewhere between your tank and the onboard filter. If it doesn't go away, you know its somewhere between the onboard filter and the fuel rail.
 
Thanks so much chawk. The air in the line is more of a solid air gap, not really bubbles streaming through, I found that kind of strange. However it sounds like that is a major problem and perhaps that's why the engine isn't getting enough fuel, I'll swap out that racor asap and then post the results.

The pump up bulb doesn't get flat, I've seen that happen one time when I had a shut off valve go bad. It does get soft, but not so much where it deflates. When I prime the system when the engine isn't running it gets rock hard with the new johnson bulb. I don't think its a problem with the air vent because I changed that line out completely and when I blew into the line from the feed line coming off the tank it blew air out of the vent easily, if there was any blockage it must have come off and then stuck back on there again.

I am also thinking it could be the pick up-tube, when I pulled the hatch and looked at it the last time it looked difficult to remove. Is there a nut that holds the entire assembly in? My tank is one of the aluminum types from florida.

My plan of action right now is to inspect and drain the vapor separator (I don't think I can remove it entirely, when I looked at the manual it seemed fairly complicated and I don't have a source for the orings and gasket). Install a new external racor head/filter. Inspect/put in new spark plugs. Install new thermostats (It's been two years at least). Remove/inspect the fuel pick up tube (providing I can get it out). And if all that fails I'll have the external gas can ready to see if it runs, I figure if I still have problems running it with the external tank then it has to be on the motor side and in that case I'll take it to the shop and have them check out the vapor separator and low pressure pump.
 
You should try the portable tank before you go through the work, time and expense of replcement, inspection etc.

Mike
 
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Agree with Mike - It seems like you have addressed all the obvious things with the fuel feed from the tank to the onboard filter. I'll certainly defer to Mike on anything from this point on on a 130 - he is the expert. I have a 225, and they are quite different engines.
 
Thanks so much guys, I'll try the portable tank. My old portable gas tank was for a two-stroke and has some reminants of oil in there for the two stroke mix, I was going to try to flush it with some new gas and empty it out but now I'm thinking, do I need to worry about any oil residue or should I just buy a new 6 gallon portable tank?
 
Just flush it as best as you can. Be sure to flush the hose and bulb also if you are going to use your two stroke hose, etc.

You said you were going to change the spark plugs. That is a good idea too.! Be sure to put in the NGK ZFR7F...not any other "equivalent".

Mike
 
The plugs will be in tomorrow I think, I'll work on it and take the boat out and load test it and will keep you posted. Thanks so much!
 
Well I changed the plugs (new NGK's, the old ngks looked fine) and did a load test in the ocean. Boat idled perfect then stalled before I could even get on plane. Swapped a portable fuel tank with a separate bulb, got it running and it stalled several times again. At the least I figure now I'm fairly confident that my problems are on the engine side and not the tank side. Since I have changed/inspected everything that I feel comfortable doing in the engine I had to swallow my pride and call the local Honda guys and made a appt to take it in 2 weeks. I will let you guys know what they say when I get it back, one of the techs said that it could be something as simple as a clogged screen or filter (I changed all filters) or a cracked head/block which is my worst fear (the former owner had the powerhead replaced before, but the tech said since the old one had problems the new one could have had problems). I've never heard the overheating buzzer go off. There is no water on the plugs and no fuel in the oil as far as I can tell.

In the meantime I was thinking of trying this where you use a fuel/vacuum gauge to see if the flow is correct but I'm having problems figuring out if they totally bypassed all the other filters to get to just the fuel pump or they ran it inline: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=283363
 
You should put it in line close to the fuel pump. That should be easy since the hoses are easy to take off the fuel pump.

In front of the fuel pump you will see a vacuum.

On the output, you should see pressure.

Watch for bubbles in the clear hose.

You should also check the pcv valve while you are checking things. It is located on the starboard port top rear of the motor. It plugs into the grommet #14 on the top of the pcv chamber #4. http://www.boats.net/parts/search/H...001 TO BZBE-1499999/CYLINDER BLOCK/parts.html

As you can see, a long hose goes from the pcv valve to the top front of the intake manifold. It is generally easiest locating the pcv valve by following the hose #45 from the manifold to the pcv valve#16 . http://www.boats.net/parts/search/H...01 TO BZBE-1499999/INTAKE MANIFOLD/parts.html Make sure all the hoses and places where they connect clear.

If you have a way to do a compression test, do so. That will probably be the first thing that your dealer will do. Then possibly a leakdown test, depending on the outcome of the compression test.

As far a crack in the head, etc. Normally, the symptom of that is that the engine has a miss in it due to one or more cylinders getting water in them. You can normally feel the miss even under a light load.

Mike
 
Thanks so much Mike, I tried to run that test today but I ran the vacuum gauge after the external fuel/water separator and before the fuel bulb. At that point it did not move much when I pinched the hose before the gauge for ten seconds, I moved maybe to the 1 inch mark and not to the 3-5 inch they said it should at idle I was hoping that would indicate a weak fuel pump but after reading your post I'll try to run it again closer to the fuel pump.

I'll also check to see if the pcv valve is clogged.

When you say you can feel the miss, what is it like? I notice sometimes during idle the engine runs and then shakes once in a while, would that indicate a miss? If the head had a crack, wouldn't that water have shown up in the oil though?
 
The shake could be a miss....basically, the engine stops running smooth and looses power. It you run the motor on a hose, pull one of the spark plug leads off of one of the spark plugs. That will be an extreme miss. Be sure to use insulated pliers to pull it off. While you are at it, pull each one off one at a time and see if the engine changes in the same way. The rpms should drop and the engine will probably shake. Just pull it off long enough for you to see how the engine reacts, then put it back on.

If one reacts differently, then that could be the bad cylinder, if you have any.

As for a cracked head putting water in the oil....not if it is cracked between two cylinders or between a very small crack between a cylinder and the water passage.

Do you know the original purchase date of your engine? If not, email me the serial number and I will see if I can find out. The warranty for a cracked block and head has been extended to 10 years from the original purchase date. Since the powerhead has been replaced already, they would has to disassemble and make a determination that it meets the critera for warranty replacement....there are many reasons for a cracked head and block other than manufacturing. They only cover the manufacturing defect.

I did have a case where we replaced the power head two times due to the defect...but the District Service Rep made the final call once he saw the evidence.
Hopefully, there is something found before you have to get to that.




Mike
 
I've been dealing with a similar problem with my bf225, except that my engine doesn't stall. It will not pull more than 10gph and will not go above 4000 rpms. Have you had your VST cleaned recently? I recently removed mine and had a shop clean it. I was told that there was 1/4" of gunk on the bottom of it clogging the screen below the fuel pump (inside the VST). If you haven't drained the VST recently, you might want to give that a try to see if there's any gunk inside that might be restricting fuel flow.
 
Mike I don't know what the purchase date was of the engine, Ill email you the serial numbers I have, there appears to be conflicting ones and I'm not sure if that's because they did the powerhead change when the original problems occurred before I bought the engine.

I disconnected each spark plug wire as you suggested, the engine rpms dropped and the engine shook on each one about the same on each plug.

I connected the fuel/vacuum gauge before the low pressure fuel pump and at idle there was hardly any pressure at all, the only way I could get any positive pressure of like five was to squeeze the fuel bulb. I pinched the hose before the gauge and fuel pump and the pump could not generate any inches of pressure at idle, even after fifteen or so seconds. I hooked up the fuel/vacuum gauge right before the vst and got the same kinds of readings. What should the fuel pressure read at idle and at say 1500 rpms? I'm hoping this is pointing to a bad low or high pressure fuel pump or a clogged screen somewhere?

Brian, I'm not sure if the bf130 has a regular vst drain, the only drain I could find on my engine was drain the high pressure fuel filter through the bolt there and I did that already. I was going to take out the vst but it looked a bit tricky so I haven't done that.
 
I have never worked on a BF130, so all info provided is based on my SELOC manual.

Drain the VST assemblly as follows:
a. Disconnect the 190mm long tube from the underside of the air intake silencer case and connect it to the VST drain joint found at the bottom of the fuel holder. Direct the tube to a suitable container to hold fuel.
b. Tilt the outboard fully UP
c. Loosen the drain screw found on the VST next to the drain joint. Check for water or debris and plan on additional repairs if either is found.
d. Tilt the outboard down and make sure the tank is drained as much as possible.
e. Tighten drain screw.

I agree that removing the VST is a job best left to the pros. Draining the VST is fairly straight forward.
 
The VST does have a drain. There should be a small nipple at the bottom front of the vst. There is a black screw (standard slot) that you back out to drain the vst.

You should get about 3 - 4 psi when you squeeze off the fuel line infront of the gauge when you have the gauge in front of the low pressure pump.

It keeps getting back to....if the engine runs ok when you squeeze the fuel bulb, then most likely at this point the low pressure pump has an issue.

I will ask again, if you have had this serviced (valve clearances checked) before this started happening. The reason I ask, is that there is a small fuel pump rocker arm that the fuel pump piston rests on and is driven off of one of the cam shafts. If the tech mistakenly flips this rocker to one side, then the pump will still pump but will not rest on this rocker and the range of the pump's piston is limited, so there is not enough fuel pressure at high speeds, when you need it.

You could also have a semiclogged screen that sits below the high pressure fuel pump. However, again, if it runs ok while squeezing the fuel bulb.....low pressure pump is where I would focus. A new pump runs $150.

Mike
 
Thanks Mike and Brian, I saw that screw (if it's the one I saw it's kind of under the fuel pump, I saw some sort of set screw that was backed in but didn't see any place to link up a hose to drain it. Since I didn't get the 3/4 psi when I was in front of the low pressure pump I'm hoping it's the pump that is going/went bad. I looked at the pcv valve today and it still had suction (when I put my finger on top of it when the engine ran I could feel suction and heard the ball click back inside).

I never had the valve clearances checked and am unsure if the previous owner had them checked, but at the least I never had them checked before the problem started happening. One of my other friends (who is having a similar problem with his bf135) also talked about that screen getting clogged up in the high pressure pump, but since that is linked up to the vst I was also sketchy about trying to take it apart. At this point I would be delighted if it turned out to be the low pressure pump but we'll have to see what the dealer says, I'd hate to swap it out and then find out it was something else. I'll keep you guys posted on the results in case someone else down the road has a similar problem, my appt is May 5th.
 
5/8/12 Update and it doesn't look good :(. I took the boat/engine down to the dealers and they first did a compression test, compression was okay at 200, 190, 200, 210. However the leak down compression test failed 35-40 percent on cylinders 2 & 3. The honda service bulletin stated that this could possibly be caused by cylinder head cracks and when I read the symptoms it was pretty much what I had experienced. I'm pretty bummed because if that's the case then I'll be dumping that motor and buying a new one since mine is out of warranty and the powerhead had already been replaced under warranty with the previous owner.

The mechanic is going to run some other tests when I take it in to confirm if it's a cracked in the head. He said possibly it might just be a bad head gasket and I could get off lucky, I'll update this when I take the boat in again.
 
You are right....it does not sound good. I thought you said, that the engine ran ok if someone kept squeezing the fuel bulb. If that is not the case, sorry we bounced you around, trying so many different things.

Here is hoping it is just a head gasket or carboned rings. A lot depends on where the leak was going.

Keep us posted.

Mike
 
No apologies necessary Mike, you guys helped me figure out a lot of stuff, at the least I know a bit more about outboards now. The engine would run only if I gave small squeezes on the bulb but would die out if I weren't constantly doing that. Would that still happen with a cracked head/block? The mechanic said that even if I got the engine fixed, I could still have a fuel problem, they are working on solving the bigger problem first. I have to bring the boat back in, he's going to run a few more tests free of charge to make sure it's a cracked block and not something else and I'll post up the results.
 
More updates: I just got back from vacation and took the boat to the shop. The honda mechanic found that the cam belt was off two tooth marks and also found some small things wrong, although at idle the high pressure pump was fine. I ran it this evening, the boat ran fine for five minutes or so and then began to lean out. I put it in neutral for a bit and then into gear, the motor could not get to 2k rpm under load without leaning out. I shut off the motor, let it sit, started it and heard the fuel pump but the boat would not get to 2k without leaning out again. I pumped the bulb half way 8 times, the boat ran to 4k rpms without any problems for 1 minute 45 seconds and then leaned out. I did the whole thing again, letting it sit, etc, it would not pass 2k rpm unless I pumped the fuel bulb.

I ran several test runs and every time the boat would run fine for 90 seconds to 2 minutes before leaning out and then the only way I could get it running would be to pump that bulb 8 or more times in which case the motor would always run 90 seconds to 2 minutes, I could pretty much set my watch by it.

I called the mechanic and he thought that with what happened there is definitely a crack in the block (the motor has fine compression but fails leak down on cylinder 2 and 3 at 35-40% loss). I think I'm having two separate problems, the leak down is definitely a big one but since I've probably been running with that problem all the time I'd rather just fix the fuel issue and keep the motor as long as possible.

I'm going to talk to the mechanic again, Mike thought possibly I might have a bad low pressure fuel pump since I have to keep pumping that bulb. I'd rather live with bad gas milage (3mpg is what I normally get at 4k rpms) than spend thousands of dollars on a new block.
 
Hopefully this is the last post I'll have to make on this thread. I got the low pressure fuel pump delivered today along with a new oring. Install was fairly easy, there are two bolts holding it on. The top bolt comes off easily enough with a 12mm socket. The lower bolt couldn't be reached with the socket because of the lower piece of cowling but I used a tiny open ended wrench to get it off. The old fuel pump was very hard to push the plunger in, it also had a bit of rust on it which I didn't like to see.

I installed the new pump/o ring and took it for a sea trial. Success! Engine did not lean out at any time. I ran it, shut it down, put it in neutral etc. It ran perfect everytime and I ran it for 30 minutes. Thanks so much Mike and everyone for your help, I still have the leak in cylinder 2/3 but I'm also pretty sure that I've always had that problem since I bought the boat used and I'm guessing that's why I'm only getting 3mpg when my friends are getting 4-5.

The mechanic also suggested running yamaha ring free and do the shock treatment in hopes it might help with the leak.
 
Man! What a story! I'm glad I looked in and read this post. GOODONYA c-level for hangin' in there and formulating a solution. And GOODONYA for the pragmatic attitude about going ahead and using your boat despite the possible cracked block.
I hope you get hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of this outboard.
Mike gets another one right!
 
I'm glad you found a solution! I agree with the mechanic on the ring free. I have seen many leak down tests improve when the rings and pistons are free of carbon.

You do not really know that there are cracks in the engine unl ess the motor is disessembled.

catch lots of fish!
 
catch lots of fish!

Already started on that Mike :). I took it out today for a full sea trial today. The boat ran flawless, not a hiccup the entire day and I ran about 34 miles total. Ended up taking a small 15 pound white seabass which is marinating in teriyaki sauce as we speak. Many many thanks guys, I'm going to start a new thread about the ring free because I have questions on that.IMG_1434.JPG
 
Epilogue: I wanted to see what makes the low pressure fuel pump tick so I took my old one apart. I got a security bit set from harbor freight tools for about 7$ and took off the nuts/security bolts. There are three springs that work the plunger/piston thing that move the fuel through the pump. I was astonished to see that two of the springs had broken into several pieces. There was a bit of rust on those springs as well, my guess is when I was originally having the slight problems two years ago (the engine would act up about once every other trip for a minute) the springs must have been breaking. Since it got worse then the springs must have been breaking along the way.

At the least I can sleep assured that it was for sure my old low pressure fuel pump causing the fuel feed fuelpump.jpgproblems and not some other gremlin!
 
c-level,

Go back and read the very first sentence of this thread you started. The solution summed up in one line except for the last word! HA!

I don't know what you do for a living but you're a high level mechanic at heart. Thanks for the update and the fine pictures. They both will probably help someone in the future find their own gremlins.

Yes, this is another example of the direct results of the fact that we can never get all the water out of our liquid fuels. Diesel is even worse and most guys that own them have suffered some expense from one form of water contamination or another.

Again, GOODONYA
And
Gday!
 
C-Level - WOW! That's nasty! Don't understand how they could have gotten rusted UNLESS you also had a phase separation in your fuel. Even given that, high quality spring steel should not rust unless subjected to a lot of water over a long period of time. So, the rusted springs do not make sense unless they were of very poor quality.

Would like to hear any other theories about how those springs could have rusted.
 
So my 2002 Honda 130 sat for a couple months this winter i took it out this past weekend it started right up. Took it out in the bay and it started to sputter a lil but it ran for about an hour then it just stopped. Fuel gage said half a tank left but it could have been off so Sea Tow gave me some gas and it started right up and it ran fine for about 500 yards then stopped again. I could never get the primer ball full or tight after that. Since then I replaced fuel/water filter after the tank I cleaned out the engines fuel/water filter replaced the primer bulb and gas is finally getting to the motor but I can see a few air bubbles in the engines fuel lines after the engines fuel/water filter. The primer bulb is finally tight But still when I try to start it it'll kick on and run for about 3 to 4 seconds than give out. I've checked the fuel tank vent it's clean I can't find any leaks in any of the lines. Any ideas what I can try next? I appreciate any and all advice. - Joel
 
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