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Binding bendix on Crusader 220 engine

Hello Guys,
I just replaced my port side engine, after the old one locked up on me couple of months ago, and I tried starting it up today with a remote starter switch, however, I am having the old problem revisiting. The starter bendix will bind on the fly wheel and want let it go unless I shut it off with battery switch. I had the same problem with the old engine, and I took the starter to a rebuilder who did the job but also said that starter was in good condition and needed only the clean up. My mechanic and I are puzzled and can't figure it out what causes this problem. We tend to believe that starter solenoid might be a reason but cannot explain why. We bench tested the starter and it seems to work fine. We put it back in and the same bendix lock up occurs. Could the solenoid contacts hold the gear engaged without releasing it after the starter switch is turned off? Why would the contacts lock up? Should we replace the solenoid?
Your comments will be greatly appreciated, as always.
Respectfully
Chriscraftcat
 
If the starter motor has a kickout solenoid on it, it's not a Bendix drive style.

The only two SBC flywheel ring gear teeth counts are 153 and 168.
The 153 requires the straight across bolt pattern.
The 168 requires the staggered bolt pattern........ pretty tough to get them mixed them up.


If it's a solenoid lever/arm action style......, it could be that the solenoid an/or the lever arm is binging up and not pulling the pinion gear back in when the power is released.

If you end up replacing it, look at some of the HTGR/PMGR starter motors.

.
 
Rick, I am wrong for calling pinion gear "bendix". Starter motor does have a kickout solenoid. Can you explain how does the solenoid/or lever arm bind the pinion gear with flywheel.
Thanks
 
I'd think that the only thing that would prevent the solenoid from pulling the pinion gear back, would be possible corrosion within the magnetic plunger itself.
That or rust on the shaft or a rusty weak return spring.

Generally, if it kicks the gear out, it will bring it back in.
Not sure what to suggest, unless something is back-feeding current to the S terminal.

.
 
Is this one of those bolt up starter deals, it uses shims to position the starter in proper mesh. (If the bolts literally go in upward, it is. If the bolts go in horizontal, it is not.)

If the bolts art vertical, you need a thicker shim to prevent binding.

Jeff
 
My two cents. What ignition system do you have? Is it an older Crusader with points and condenser? If yes, is it possible you have the I terminal wire hooked up to the start post?
 
If yes, is it possible you have the I terminal wire hooked up to the start post?
Chris, good point, and that very same thing crossed my mind early.
Had it not been for him using the term "Locked Up", I'd have suggested that also.

So, my next question is:
Is the starter motor actually locking up, or is it not letting go?????

The circuit that Chris mentions is the "start-by-pass" circuit that provides full current to the ignition system during cranking.
If this is back-feeding, the starter motor will not disengage...... both electrically and mechanically.
Disconnect this portion of the system, and give it another try.

.
 
Delco's documentation calls the starter's drive gear the overrun clutch assembly. It is very common to refer to a starter's drive gear as the Bendix...I wouldn't sweat that one.

Sounds like this is an electrical issue and not a mechanical issue (problem stops when battery is removed). Having the resistor bypass wire (going to the ignition coil) on the S terminal of the starter could keep the starter from releasing. Recheck the existing wires. If you think they are ok, pull the small gauge wires off the solenoid and use your remote switch. If it is well behaved, your existing engine harness has an issue (internal short) and I'd tend to replace the bad wires external to the harness vs replacing the whole harness.

You could also put a test light between ground and the small S terminal - light should come on only when Key is in the START position. If it stays on whenyou release the key from the START position, you verified the issue is electrical.
 
Mark, I understand the no sweat and splitting hairs, etc.......... Motor -vs- Engine, 12 volt Ground -vs- Negative, and we could keep going.
However, the Bendix pinion and Sprague clutch units are kicked out via quick armature torque. No electro-mechanical solenoid arm action.
The Solenoid arm action pinion and Sprague clutch (such as the Delco) are kicked out electro-mechanically.

That's hardly an insignificant difference, IMO.

.
 
my point is 95 % of the people equate a starter bendix to a starter drive gear w/o even thinking about it. In my experiences around it, using that phrase may not be technically accurate but it is rarely used ambiguously. Not to pick on you but consider your last post's "kicked out" phrase...that one gets thrown around a lot and I've almost never certain what is going on on the boat when a post uses it.
 
Mark, I'll give you that one!
The phrase "kicked out" doesn't do it justice for the solenoid arm action drive style. Perhaps it would be better if we said "lever engaged"!

"Kicked" or "thrown" out could be reserved for the Bendix style. :cool:

Just fun'n with ya a little!

.
 
Guys, it's fun reading your comments and suggestions. Mark hit it right on the spot! I went to the race car mechanic shop here and learned that many of 305 chevy engines experienced that problem in the past, ie. pinion gear not disengaging after the ign. switch is released. So, the mechanic drew the sketch for me and instructed how to rewire the circuit. The starter solenoid was bypassed and the new, beefier Ford starter relay is used to serve as starter solenoid. The main battery cable was connected to the right side terminal of starter relay, and the jumper of the same dia. cable was used to connect between the starter solenoid (Bat. pos. terminal) and Starter Relay (left side terminal). All other wires were connected properly and the engine was started with pinion gear disengaging properly.
The race car drivers do it all the time, according to Vic the kind and informative mechanic, on their old chevy stock cars.
Chriscraftcat
 
I am curious:
What does the starter motor look like?

Is it lever arm action and engine mounted down low aiming AFT like a typical I/O starter motor... or car/truck installation?
chevy%20marine%20starter.jpg

Is it lever arm action and mounted into the rear of the flywheel cover (two or three bolt pattern) aiming forward like a typical inboard starter motor?

MES5276ML.jpg




Or is it a Bendix drive like either of these?

Engine mounted I/O style Bendix drive aiming AFT... or car/truck installation.

ARC50141.jpg



Flywheel cover mounted Bendix drive (two or three bolt pattern) aiming forward like a typical inboard starter motor?

images







.
 
Rick - I'll let the owner verify but I'd be amazed if it doesn't come back as Door #2.

Sounds like the race mech got him hooked up with a slave solenoid; wonder where the factory one went?
 
If that starter looks like # 1 or # 2 above, the solenoid has a dual function: to energize the motor via contacts, and to physically engage the bendix. Using a slave solenoid would only accomplish the first objective.

Jeff
 
1.... If that starter looks like # 1 or # 2 above, the solenoid has a dual function: to energize the motor via contacts, and to physically engage the bendix.

2.... Using a slave solenoid would only accomplish the first objective.

1... Jeff, if that was to get my goat, it worked!

Jeff 1
Rick 0
:D :D

2... I think that the slave solenoid came into play when the start-by-pass circuits began to pose back-feed issues.
Schematically, and in terms of starter motor function, there is no need for the slave solenoid.
It is redendant and creates yet one more area to trouble-shoot in the event of problems, IMO.


Re; #1:

Back when the Rocky Mountains were just a small pile of dirt, the first d/c electric starter motors used a Bendix Drive.
This was during the flat head engine era, and the starter motor circuit was activated via a foot switch.
Bendix was apparently the first company to create this steep spiral spline, torque engaged, Sprague Clutch style pinion arrangement.
The foot switch closed the circuit, but armature torque threw the drive into the flywheel.
The Sprague Clutch prevented over-revving.
Low battery voltage...... no engagement!


Later as trees began growing at the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, and when we began mastering the art of electro-magnetic solenoids, the next generation of d/c electric starter motors began using the solenoid lever/arm action starter motor pinion drive systems still used today.
No more Bendix style steep cut spiral splines, and no quick armature torque required to throw the pinion gear into the flywheel.
Low battery voltage........ it may spin slowly, but you'll have engagement.


Bendix became a brand name.
The company also manufactured brake components, washing machines, radios, magnetos, contact brushes, pneumatic starter motors and other electric starter motor components, and perhaps the later style solenoid lever/arm action pinion drives.
In a rather misnomer fashion, many of us tend to still use the term "Bendix" to describe the later solenoid arm action style pinion drives.
You can even Google this and see Bendix being used incorrectly.

If you were to re-engineer an old school Bendix style starter motor, and were to install a modern day pinion drive onto this armature shaft, omitting the lever/arm action solenoid, you would not see any pinion/flywheel engagement.
We must have the Bendix spiral spline arrangement for this to work.


So if this is a Bendix Drive pinion unit............
images




Then technically, what is this, and how are we to delineate between the two?
strtr_bndx.gif






I guess you'd need to be an old timer to understand this. :D

.
 
Schematically, and in terms of starter motor function, there is no need for the slave solenoid.
It is redendant and creates yet one more area to trouble-shoot in the event of problems, IMO.

There is a need for the slave solenoid and, although it is application dependent, 100% of the modern marinizers included it on the larger engines. You'll find most starter solenoids will draw 20+ amps when active. Try drawing that thru a 30 foot hull harness (both ways) and see what happens.
 
Foot starter! You ARE an old timer! I recall my neighbor's 57 Buick had such a system. Memories!

Bet you've never seen this weird deal: it's from an early Mercury Mark 55.

Jeff
 

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Foot starter! You ARE an old timer! I recall my neighbor's 57 Buick had such a system. Memories!

Bet you've never seen this weird deal: it's from an early Mercury Mark 55. No "Bendix" required.

Jeff
 
There is a need for the slave solenoid and, although it is application dependent, 100% of the modern marinizers included it on the larger engines. You'll find most starter solenoids will draw 20+ amps when active. Try drawing that thru a 30 foot hull harness (both ways) and see what happens.
Mark, NO.... I hear you. I stand corrected. In that case, I can see the need for a primary relay.

As a matter of fact, I had a similar issue with my own twin engine boat. I ended up using the little five pin relays to excite the main starter motor solenoids.

This removed the large load from my key switches and hull harness.


It is a lever arm action starter mounted on the rear of engine into the flywheel housing.
OK, then these would not be using the Bendix pinion gear arrangement.
This is good! :D
 
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