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'67 sea ray/'78 chev 305 2bbl NO SPARK

dimitrimfogal

Regular Contributor
okay , i changed points , condensor , plugs , wires , and coil and now have no spark at all....what did i do wrong?
thanx in advance...dimitri
 
okay , i changed points , condensor , plugs , wires , and coil and now have no spark at all....what did i do wrong?
thanx in advance...dimitri

LOL Check the following:

Correct gap on points
12vdc+ at coil with ignition on
Ground connected on coil negative and grounded on a clean grounding point
forget to put rotor in?

Or forget the breaker points mess and get a pertronix electronic kit which uses your current cap/rotor/coil and spark plug wires. I have one in my 78 Mercruiser and it works perfectly.
 
LOL Check the following:

Correct gap on points
12vdc+ at coil with ignition on
Ground connected on coil negative and grounded on a clean grounding point
forget to put rotor in?

Or forget the breaker points mess and get a pertronix electronic kit which uses your current cap/rotor/coil and spark plug wires. I have one in my 78 Mercruiser and it works perfectly.
You should be setting the point dwell angle, not gap.... particularly for any eight sided points cam.
Gap is an estimate only of correct dwell angle.
With a 4 stroke V-8 Ignition, you have only 45* angle of which one cylinder has dedicated for coil saturation and field collapse.
This 45* must be divided correctly by dwell angle... not via gap!
See your OEM service manual for this spec.


You will see 12 volts at the + side of the coil ONLY if no ballast resistor is used.
Otherwise, you will see resisted voltage.
See your OEM service manual.

The Pertronix kit is OK if you have the distributor tested and checked for wear and for correct mechanical advance function.
Any shaft bushing wear offers the potential of throwing the dwell angle off.
The Pertronix Hall Effect kit also needs to maintain a correct dwell angle.

With either Hall Effect or VR (variable reluctor) dwell angle is controlled by the distance between the magnetic unit to the sensor unit.
A warn and wobbling shaft can disrupt dwell angle.
This can be fixed, but at an expense.
This is often why we are much better off to simply replace the entire ignition distributor, rather than use the Hall Effect kit, IMO.
Ya get a new housing, gear, shaft, bushings, triggering device, advancing system, cap, rotor, and the whole nine yards... and if you make the right purchase, no Hall Effect! :D


.
 
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Me personally, I would rather have a solid state ignition or atleast a hybrid (pertronix) that requires no adjustment vs. breaker points. How many times have you heard of someone getting stranded by burnt up points vs. a failed ignition module?
 
Fully agree... but perhaps you missed my point!
The Pertronix kit is not the answer if the existing distributor is worn (i.e., shaft bushings and/or advancing mechanism).
If you have access to a shop who owns an old school Sun Distributor Machine, this can easily be checked and/or corrected.... but at a cost.
Take that same $$$ and apply it towards a much better brand new ignition system... either Photo Eye or VR... not the Hall Effect that Pertronix uses.
 
I understand your points. But a "worn out" distributor is NOT what caused his no spark condition. I doubt he is looking to replace his whole ignition system.

It becomes a matter of just how far "you" want to go with repairing xxxxx. Replace the whole thing, correct factory screw-ups, reinvent the wheel or just fix what you have at the minimal cost.
 
Perhaps I'm the one who is not being clear! My apologies if so.

The OP is having a NO Spark issue, correct?
He has changed points , condensor , plugs , wires , and coil, correct?
It was then suggested that he check the point gap, correct?
I made the suggestion re; dwell, and explained why, etc., etc.

You mentioned; "get a pertronix electronic kit which uses your current cap/rotor/coil and spark plug wires" .... "hybrid (pertronix) that requires no adjustment vs. breaker points".
These were the comments that lead us into the Pertronix discussion, correct?

I understand your points. But a "worn out" distributor is NOT what caused his no spark condition. I doubt he is looking to replace his whole ignition system. It becomes a matter of just how far "you" want to go with repairing xxxxx. Replace the whole thing, correct factory screw-ups, reinvent the wheel or just fix what you have at the minimal cost.
Yes, quite often people are willing to make less than correct repairs and/or replacements regarding their Marine items in order to save money!

Perhaps these are the same people who are thinking that they can simply pull over the side of the road when they have trouble.
I'm willing to wager that after a few times of this, these same people are more willing to invoke proper repairs/replacements that may initially cost a bit more.

.
 
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Ok I now see you where the communication breakdown is at....... Copied from the OP first post........

"okay , i changed points , condensor , plugs , wires , and coil and now have no spark at all....what did i do wrong?
thanx in advance...dimitri"


The way i read that is that for some reason he decided to replace the points, condensor, plugs, wires and coil and after he did all that....he now does NOT get any spark at all....which leads me to believe he had spark before he started screwing with the ignition system.


Of course what's missing is the original reason he decided to go through and replace so much of the ignition system.



My guess is that it had gas set up in it and went all varnish on him causing the engine to run like crap or not start at all. Majority of people (inexperienced) will run right to the ignition system first on this type of problem even though its a fuel delivery problem (carb, pump, tank).
 
LOL Check the following:

Correct gap on points
12vdc+ at coil with ignition on
Ground connected on coil negative and grounded on a clean grounding point
forget to put rotor in?

Or forget the breaker points mess and get a pertronix electronic kit which uses your current cap/rotor/coil and spark plug wires. I have one in my 78 Mercruiser and it works perfectly.

????????
 
Here is Dimitri's opening comment in his thread.
okay , i changed points , condensor , plugs , wires , and coil and now have no spark at all....what did i do wrong?
thanx in advance...dimitri
No mention of bad fuel or any other related issues. He mentions only the changes listed above.

1.... The way i read that is that for some reason he decided to replace the points, condensor, plugs, wires and coil and after he did all that.... he now does NOT get any spark at all....which leads me to believe he had spark before he started screwing with the ignition system.


2.... Of course what's missing is the original reason he decided to go through and replace so much of the ignition system.


3.... My guess is that it had gas set up in it and went all varnish on him causing the engine to run like crap or not start at all. Majority of people (inexperienced) will run right to the ignition system first on this type of problem even though its a fuel delivery problem (carb, pump, tank).
1... By replacing these components, Dimitri may be doing what we call a "Tune Up" or may be doing "Preventative Maintenance" so he doesn't become stranded off to the side of the Hwy. (a little sarcasm there :D )

2... It should not matter to us what Dimitri's reason was for replacing these components....... (bad fuel, early sunset, full moon, half moon or bad day fishing), he is now not getting secondary voltage from his ignition coil. Perhaps an issue on the primary triggering side, but we can make assumptions only since he hasn't posted back.

3... points , condensor , plugs , wires , and coil???? :confused: See my #1.


Rockola, don't get me wrong here..... mentioning fuel, age of fuel, filters, (carb, pump, tank) etc, are valid concerns. But those are not the issue at this time as per what we read.
I think it's best if we all stay on task!



***********************************************

Dimitri, if you are still reading, how 'bout posting back and bringing us up to speed?
Is there any other info that we should look at?
Do you understand a mechanical contact ignition system.... how one works, etc?


.
 
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Guess what ....Im all done with seeing who can piss the farthest. You want to be standoffish....go ahead...but do it with someone else.

My intent was to give the guy a hand.... Newsflash....you arent the only person that knows how to troubleshoot and service a damn breaker point ignition system.

OP's post...which clearly states "and now have no spark at all." which is a no brainer that he had spark before he started replacing stuff.

Anyway....Im done....now you go pee over there.
 
"Ground wire connected on coil negative and grounded on a clean grounding point"

Ground wire(AKA Negative wire) connected to negative terminal of ignition coil
And the other end of that negative terminal wire connected (AKA Grounded since it is negative) on a clean(AKA corrosion free) grounding point (sometimes its the negative terminal of the battery sometimes its on the engine IE: the intake manifold). Depends on manufacturer and model.

I can do a drawing in paintshop for ya if you need further illistration. I can do it cartoon style and in color...or i can do a ladder or single line schematic diagram also...but i may need to charge extra for all that depending on time constraints.......
 
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alright gentlemen , i had a 2hr drive each way and an extra long day at work..please forgive me for not answering sooner....yes i had spark prior to "screwing " with my ignition system....i replaced each part one at a time exactly as it came out (except for the points in wich had to be set )...my crappy old points distributor has worked fine up until now and i replaced all this stuff as preventive maintinence so i could spend my spring and summer fishing and not floundering .. i am suspecting the new coil i bought is faulty and will put the old one back on and see if thats the problem...i wont get to it for a few days as its dark when i get home...i appologize for not being specific and clear in my original post and didnt mean to get in the middle of an argument thanx for your help guys....dimitri
 
Dmitri, you didnt get in the middle of an argument...It just appears there might be 1 or 2 in this forum that think they are the only person in the world that can troubleshoot an ignition system...among other things.


If you have a multimeter/ohmeter/VOM/DVM or whatever some boneheads want to call it...I call it my fluke 87IIIE, you can check that new ignition coil. From the positive to the negative terminals you should have a fairly low resistance. Around 100ohms or less most likely. From the High Tension lead to the negative terminal you should have a high resistance, probably around 10,000 to 20,000. If either of these readings is Open/Infinite then the coil is junk. You can also measure from the high tension side to positive terminal to rule out a short from low to high side. This reading should be an open/infinite resistance. If it isnt then coil is junk.
 
"Ground wire connected on coil negative and grounded on a clean grounding point"

Ground wire(AKA Negative wire) connected to negative terminal of ignition coil
And the other end of that negative terminal wire connected (AKA Grounded since it is negative) on a clean(AKA corrosion free) grounding point (sometimes its the negative terminal of the battery sometimes its on the engine IE: the intake manifold). Depends on manufacturer and model.

I can do a drawing in paintshop for ya if you need further illistration. I can do it cartoon style and in color...or i can do a ladder or single line schematic diagram also...but i may need to charge extra for all that depending on time constraints.......




Go ahead and hook the negative side of the coil to a good ground and see what happens. The negative side of the coil will be hooked to the points and the condenser.

Here is a cartoon picture for you. Don't think you are capable of reading a real schematic.450px-Car_ignition_system.svg.jpg
 
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alright gentlemen , i had a 2hr drive each way and an extra long day at work..please forgive me for not answering sooner....yes i had spark prior to "screwing " with my ignition system....i replaced each part one at a time exactly as it came out (except for the points in wich had to be set )...my crappy old points distributor has worked fine up until now and i replaced all this stuff as preventive maintinence so i could spend my spring and summer fishing and not floundering .. i am suspecting the new coil i bought is faulty and will put the old one back on and see if thats the problem...i wont get to it for a few days as its dark when i get home...i appologize for not being specific and clear in my original post and didnt mean to get in the middle of an argument thanx for your help guys....dimitri

Before you remove the coil, make sure you have 12 volts(If coil has internal ballast) (approx 8volts if external ballast) to the positive side of the coil. If yes, get a spark gap tester and take the coil wire from the center of the dist cap and hook it to the spark tester. Rotate the engine so that your points are open. Now get a jumper wire and hook it to the negative of the coil. With the ignition system powered up, quickly tap the other end of the jumper wire to a good ground. You should have spark if the coil is good.

You want to check and see if you have an external ballast and a resisted coil. You can't have both.

BTW You should have an externally resisted coil and should be getting a full 12 Volts to the positive of the coil while cranking the engine. The power feed to the coil positive should have another wire piggy backed on it from the starter solenoid.
 
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Dope...thats right....i forgot all about them breaking the negative instead of hot. Been awhile since ive ever needed to mess with breaker points....I toss them out with the rest of the old useles junk. SOLID STATE ROCKS!

But seriously...you are gonna call me a DB?
 
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Dimitri, you have not caused any argument at all, and no apology is needed.
Rockola came to this forum armed with an attitude in the first thread that
he posted,
and we don't need that here!

As to your "no spark" problem, it's often difficult to diagnose something via keyboard and forum format. You'll likely find that it's something very simple.
A mechanical contact system is actually very simple to understand and to troubleshoot.

Here's basically what you have.
The image below is for a 6 cylinder, but the principle is the same for any.


You'll have power to the + side of the ignition coil. (this may be resisted, or it may not be)
In the schematic below, you'll see a primary resistor.
See your OEM manual to determine if your system uses one or not.

Although shown as a red lead, note that the Negative path for the primary - side of the ignition coil is through the contact points.
Not as Rockola suggested.
The connecting condenser acts as an electrical storage device.

When the points are closed, the primary side of the coil is being charged or saturated.
The duration of charge (or saturation) is measured in dwell angle, that I mentioned earlier.
Each engine distributor is limited to dwell angle by the number of cylinders.... but no need to discuss for your purpose.

After saturation and when the points "break" (open), the primary field collapses.
The pulse created by this collapse causes a high voltage output on the secondary side.
There's the spark that we want!
Basically, one spark event is similar to one cycle of an A/C voltage transformer. We're just doing this one at a time and with D/C current, not AC.

So... nut shelling this:
Distributor cam must be opening and closing the contact points and with the correct dwell angle.
The condenser must be good and connected correctly to the contact points.
The coil must be good and of the correct type.
Power source must be correct..... resisted or non-resisted.
Cap and rotor must be correct.
Distributor housing must make Negative continuity.
And of course the plugs and wires must be correct and good.


The image will also show where you can connect a test spark plug and wire directly into the coil as to eliminate the cap/rotor.
With this, you should see a spark event for each cylinder since the cap/rotor are out of the loop.
 

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  • Ignition Diagram with initial timing test.gif
    Ignition Diagram with initial timing test.gif
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Another thought that I forgot to include and that Chris did include.

If you will, go back to the schematic that I marked up and posted.
Look at the key switch.
You see a second means of powering the ignition coil via the key switch.
This circuit on your boat (if equipped) will NOT be part of the ignition key switch directly, but rather will be triggered by a portion of the starter motor solenoid excite circuit.
As Chris said, during cranking ONLY, the ballast resistor is by-passed, giving the coil a full, or nearly full, 12 volts.
This is why you will want to take two voltage readings at the coil.
1.... Ingition key on ... no cranking.
2.... During cranking.



Here's my schematic prior to me making a few changes.
You will not have a diaphram vacuum advance on your system, nor the direct "start by-pass" via the key switch.
ignition_diagram.gif


Just for kicks, here's a very simple view of a typical and old school style ignition coil.
The ignition coil is nothing more that an electrical transformer. It contains both primary and secondary winding circuits.
The coil primary winding contains 100 to 150 turns of heavy copper wire.
These windings must be insulated so that the voltage does not jump from loop to loop, shorting it out.
If this were to happen, it would not create the primary magnetic field that is required.

The primary circuit wire goes into the coil through the positive terminal, then loops around the primary windings, then exits through the negative terminal where the contact points eventually trigger a spark event.
This is better demonstrated in the lower-most image.

image





circ_ic.gif
 
alright guys thanx again for your help...i bought a multimeter...was getting power to the new coil but new coil not sending out spark...i took the advice to yank the points and put in a petronix elec ignition and a flame thrower coil...shes runnin good on the hose...we'll see how she does on the water soon...thanx again for your help
 
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