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closed cooling question

zackie77

Member
I just bought a larson with a merc. 3.7 that has closed cooling, is this a good system? is this suppossed to be better than raw water?. can it be taken off if I want?
 
It must NOT be taken off.--------Have a competent dealer check all gaskets on the manifolds.-------------These motors do have a history.
 
They are a great power to weight ratio engine when all is working. Don't overheat it; head gasket blows easily. If it has timing problems suspect a worn dist. shaft. Electronic ignition conversion makes it run better. Manifolds are getting scarce...not cheap. If you need to replace the heat exchanger get a 4 tube exchanger unless you live in northern lattitudes w/cool lake water. The charging system is the same as an outboard...not good on an I/O. When it pukes out add a single wire 60 amp alternator kit...$350 or so.
 
ok thanks, yes I live in michigan, water rarley exceeds 75 deg. why would they put a cast iron head on an alum. block? going to put on an electronic ignition on it. what is FWC?
 
fresh water cooled. Or closed cooling system just like your car.

RWC is raw water cooled. That's where the engine just runs water from the lake or river right through the engine.
 
It's a Ford V-8 iron head on a Merc. designed block. The P:W ratio is excellent; Merc. management engineers just made some piss poor decisions during development to reduce cost. I.e., stator charger is undersized, 3 tube exchanger is minimal, exhaust manifold cost is rediculous and the water cooled regulator was undersized and overpriced for the elec. load. The repair costs are off the wall compared to similar engines thus it was discontinued.
 
ok thanks, yes I live in michigan, water rarley exceeds 75 deg. why would they put a cast iron head on an alum. block? going to put on an electronic ignition on it. what is FWC?
FWC = "fresh water cooling" and is at best a misnomer and a poor term to be using, IMO.
There is nothing fresh about Ethylene Glycol and distilled H2O. :mad:
FWC is also found used by some who have "open" systems but operate in Lake or River water only... being that they call this "fresh water".
So depending on how the term is used or interpreted, it may offer two different meanings.

The correct term (for me) would be CCS or Closed Cooling System.
But.... half of the industry ran with the term FWC... including many of the suppliers of these systems. :mad:


OK... rant over! :)


It's a Ford V-8 iron head on a Merc. designed block. The P:W ratio is excellent; Merc. management engineers just made some piss poor decisions during development to reduce cost. I.e., stator charger is undersized, 3 tube exchanger is minimal, exhaust manifold cost is ridiculous and the water cooled regulator was undersized and overpriced for the elec. load. The repair costs are off the wall compared to similar engines thus it was discontinued.
Spot on!
Also note that the front camshaft cover provides division between the camshaft area and the engine coolant circ pump. The actual end of the camshaft drives the circ pump impeller.
You've got oil on one side... E/G on the other, which means a unique load on this specific type seal for this area.
You DO NOT want a seal failure here.

On the other hand, they were a good strong engine.
 
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It's a Ford V-8 iron head on a Merc. designed block. The P:W ratio is excellent; Merc. management engineers just made some piss poor decisions during development to reduce cost. I.e., stator charger is undersized, 3 tube exchanger is minimal, exhaust manifold cost is rediculous and the water cooled regulator was undersized and overpriced for the elec. load. The repair costs are off the wall compared to similar engines thus it was discontinued.

Ayuh,.... Ditto that,....

The 470 is the redheaded bastard step-child of some Merc engineers, that's been abandoned by Mercruiser....

It's a pizzpoor attempt at buildin' an inboard motor, outa outboard technologies...

Lots, 'n lotsa parts all carry the same part number,.... NLA....

If the Op strips the closed cooling off it, she's gonna be Junk, probably 1st trip out....

Hopefully this new hull is a Single, so's a 4.3l can be dropped in, with a reasonable effort...
Hulls with Twin 470s usually have 'em so close together, ya Can't drop in V-motors....

Ya didn't say what the vintage is, but here's a link to a motor manual,....
 
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On a trailer with a hose hooked up, my 3.7 (180) runs around 155-160 degrees at approximately 1500 rpm. I wouldn"t run it any harder than that out of the water and on a hose. Under load, depending how hard you push it along with ambient temp, most of the time you should be running around 180-190 degrees. However, on a hot day and running in pretty warm water, I have reached close to 200 degrees. Depends how good of shape your heat exchanger (clean) and hopefully you have the 4" exchanger but maybe you will be alright if running in cold lake water. Also, the impeller in the drive should probably be replaced to make sure you reduce the risk of overheat. Never run boat on trailer without water being fed to the drive. Only takes a few second to damage the rubber impeller in the bottom leg of drive. The hot exaust gases will melt it then you are forced to replace or you will definitely over heat and cause serious problems. Make sure you have the proper thermostat and it does work, or just replace it to be safe. You cannot run without the proper thermostat. Make sure your temp. sender and or gauge does indeed give you an accurate read. Just saying, don't assume anything! Overheat is a killer to the 470's. With respect to the front seals on the cam driven water impeller: There are two seals on the front timing cover that over time, can fail and let coolant get into your oil causing possible engine failure. If the seals are old and you have never changed them, you probably should. Problem being that "yes" there is a weep hole at the bottom of timing cover that supposedly indicates the failure of one of the seals. But, don't bet on it! Mine were all blocked up with rust and debris so they wouldn't have given me any warning if indeed the seals did fail. Also, when rebuilding my engine, there is a plug again at the 7:00 position at bottom of timing cover. It is at the lowest point of the cooling system. It should be removed if possible and drain all coolant out. 'This will usually give you some indication of the condition of your seals if you were to see alot of fine rusty material in the coolant. look real good! The drain plug on my engine was completely blocked up also but I was in the process of rebuildin anyway. I drain my coolant every season at the lowest plug that I mentioned because I believe it helps remove some of the solids that tend to build up around the bottom of the water impellar housing, but that is just me. Hopefully, the seals have not cut the cam surface to bad where you can just clean it up a little with steel wool and reinstall seals in the timing cover. It is a pain in the ass job, but if you have a bit of patience and a little mechanical knowledge, you should be able to do it yourself. (If there is enough room to do so in the front of engine compartment. I know I said alot but try and understand that these engines take alot of preventive maintenance and some understanding or just as bondo mentioned you will be broken down on the water the first trip out. I hope that is not the case but like I said before. Don't assume anything! Most of the people that owned these engines had no freaken idea how to take care of them. They did however, have alot of crappy oem problems that were expensive to try and upgrade. Oem charging systems sucked, 3" heat exchanger sucked, cast iron head mated to a dissimilar aluminum block kind of sucked but if you take one at a time and make the proper upgrades and changes they can run a long time. Said enough for now. If I can help you, I will try so keep posting. best of luck, Tom
 
thanks tom, if I had known all of this I probably would have not bought it. I had a 95 searay with the 3 liter and I thought it was about the same. however now I am stuck with it. the guy I bought it from owns a marine sales and repair shop, and he said the motor and drive are in good shape and he said he warrantys it for a full season. the motor says 485 on it, I am not sure it is the original motor for a 1990 larson 190BRm most of them I see say 470. I am planning on put an electronic ignition kit on it, and maybe a altenator kit if the original craps out.the boat itself is like brand new, may even be worth putting in a 3 liter. what do you think?
 
thanks tom, if I had known all of this I probably would have not bought it. I had a 95 searay with the 3 liter and I thought it was about the same. however now I am stuck with it. the guy I bought it from owns a marine sales and repair shop, and he said the motor and drive are in good shape and he said he warrantys it for a full season. the motor says 485 on it, I am not sure it is the original motor for a 1990 larson 190BRm most of them I see say 470. I am planning on put an electronic ignition kit on it, and maybe a altenator kit if the original craps out.the boat itself is like brand new, may even be worth putting in a 3 liter. what do you think?

Ayuh,.... A 4.3l is only a tad more work to swap, 'n yer outdrive gear ratio will work....

And, it's More, Smoother Power....
 
If it's the original engine in a '90 boat the 485 was the last model produced. It most likely has the 4" heat exchanger.
By 1990 Merc had made many changes internally that made it more reliable than the early models, so you may have lucked out
from that aspect. But like others have said, parts are rare, it's 22 years old, history unknown, etc. A 3.0L would certainly work in
a 19 footer, but would be quite a bit slower - all depends on what how you want to ride. A V6 would be better but require some
glass modifications for the engine mounts, and maybe the motor box.
 
4.3"s use to much gas, not looking to fast, just wan"t to take grand kids swimming maybe 6 times a yr. I use my 14ft alum. boat for fishing almost all the time, this boat won"t get used very often, but I would like to keep it for a long time, like I said the boat is like brand new and bow riders are hard to find around here. 90 percent are cuddys. if this motor craps I"ll put in another motor.
 
the motor says 485 on it,
It has a 4BBL to make it 185 HP vs. the 470 170 HP. You would never be happy w/a 3.0L 135 HP in a 19' boat...4.3L 205 HP would be the way to go. I'd rather be riding a racehorse taking its good old time than be riding a pony working its arse off.
 
4.3"s use to much gas...
Only if you race w/it. Mine had a 2BBL and was easy on the wallet. A 4 BBL will be easy on the wallet for cruising yet provide the backup power to get off the lake in a hurry. You'll like the 485 power to weight ratio...also easy on the wallet for cruising. As said before it's a great engine when it's taken care of and running right.
 
Sell it now if it running well. If the head gasket goes your in a world of hurt. There is a weird voodo type ritual to replacing the head gasket.
What exactly was the warranty ? Is it in writing ? A 3.0 in a 19' boat is perfect i have one my friends have one. Cheap on gas also.
Sell it and forget it.
 
zackie 77, did not mean to sound so negative. Just a little sick of talking about the OEM letdowns that the original motor was sold with. If the boat is as clean as you say, then that could be an indication that the previous owner cared for the boat and engine system. It would be nice to know what was actually done if you were able to find out from the previous owner. I guess my point is this: If the engine has never been overheated, you have good compression, cam seals were replaced, good oil pressure, cooling system is working properly, charging system is working as it should, risers and gaskets,manifolds, exaust flappers, etc. then run the heck out of it. These engines run strong but have to be maintained regularly. Not only do they run strong but they are pretty awesome on fuel. To give you an idea: last summer I took my kids down to the Jersey shore and ran the living puss out of the boat. (18 footer with 1988 3.7lx 180hp) The boat weighs approximately 2600lbs with fuel and gear. I ran approximately 8-9 hours that day. We traveled from Great Egg Harbor to Avalon came back up the Ocean side drove for another hour or two just putzing around because it was so beautiful and in a nut shell burned exactly $68.00 in gas. That is pretty cheap this day and age out on the water. I am guessing, but I bet conservatively I travelled at least 60-70 miles as the crow flies. (just guessing but I bet I am close). If the boat runs good at the moment then run the heck out of it and enjoy it before you go thinking about repowering. Make sure you do not run long at wide open throttle. I think you should be running wide open at 4600-4800. That is what is printed on my valve cover. I wouldn't run long at that rpm with that engine either. But if your prop is correct, it should be able to attain wot. I usually cruise at about 3600-3800 rpm. The engine seems to run pretty cool at that range and I still can travel around 25-28 miles per hour. Believe me, that is plenty fast in rougher water. You will see. I am no different than you except for the fact that I actually restored and repowered my boat and asked the same questions. (Trust me, I would never do it again! lol) Anyway, I did finish it after 3 1/2 years and store it in my garage. Storage is the key to preservation. I have never left the boat in the water except once at a lake in the mountains other than that the boat gets flushed with fresh water after every trip and washed and to tell you the truth it is nothing but work but I find myself doing it all just the same! lmao. It started out as a hobby that I really enjoy and have learned alot from these guys on this forum.They are great people offering a wealth of knowledge if you are just willing to listen. The first thing I would do is this:

1) how many hours are on the motor
2) Good compression? Good oil pressure? Mine starts at about 75-80psi but after hard runs will drop down to around 20psi which is a common occurence. As long as you have oil pressure at idle after hard run and it goes up with throttle you should be ok.
3) Is the distributor worn?, if so is it within tolerance as per manual (If not it could possibly cause detonation leading to engine failure)
4)Drain coolant and inspect at the 7:00 Replace with fresh 50/50. I think old coolants ph can be corrosive.
5) Make sure the weep hole at bottom of timing cover is not blocked up. It will be hard to locate. use mechanics mirror and light and take a piece of mechanics wire very carefully to see if it will insert into the weep hole. If not it is probably corroded and blocked as mentioned above.
6) Are all of your gauges working correctly? If not fix them. It could save your engine. I never take my eyes off of them when running hard as much as humanly possible. Oil pressure and water temp along with voltage are key to keeping this engine alive. Anything can happen like seaweed blocking the inlet on the drive causing an overheat so watch your gauges carefully.
7) Battery cable connections clean from batteries to starter? You should have a Delco starter as well as distributor. These engines take a good bit of amperage to turn over so make sure you got good wires, clean connections. Have someone turn over engine and feel battery cables to see if they get hot or even warm. That is usually an indication of either rotten wires or poor contacts either on the starter or the battery(s) themselves. I use dialectic grease and continuously clean terminals and connections because of electrolysis. check water in batteries! You will see! lol Nature of the beast! lol
8) The carb on your boat is probably a Rochester Quadrajet which is a NLA part so take good care of your fuel system. Inline filter to carb? I searched around for a spare and found one so keep it in mind. You can always change intake manifold back to a two barrel setup if you weren't able to locate a carb. I think there are two that you can go with. Just so you are aware, for the most part the 470's are all the same except as mentioned above pistons may have been upgraded along with distributors and starters along with 4" heat exchangers. I think early versions had Prestolite ignition systems (distributors) along with starters which had remote solenoids. (seperate from starter that's all) The later used Delco. Also, before I forget, there should be a small filter which screws directly into carb. Make sure it is clean!
9) How old is fuel pump? It should be a Carter mechanical pump which produces 4-6 psi. Make sure you don't replace with any higher than that or you will have all sorts of problems. Make sure the spacer behind fuel pump is intact. Pump will not work properly if the spacer is not in place. It is a cam driven pump on side of block. There is also a filter on the fuel pump that has to be routinely checked if your tank is old and dirty and you do not have an inline filter it could have crap in it. Also, after a long hard run you may experience a hard start condition. What happens is the fuel in the metal lines going into the carb. can actually boil causing a hard start no fuel condition. Merc. sold a fuel cooler for this problem but I have found that if you move throttle with the throttle only button and give it two full throttle strokes and then leave it to about 1/3 throttle, you can get it to start fairly easily. Just trying to save you from burning out your starter by turning and turning. You will see! lol
10) Pertronix electonic ignition system is a must for this engine. It makes cold starting alot easier, better power, better economy. Before you install the Pertronix make sure your distributor is not worn as mentioned above as per manual. It could cause detonation problems and possible engine failure if all is not well. The kit is relatively easy to install along with the 40,000 volt flamethrower coil. Don't go any higher than that with the coil because of the small distributor cap and heat issues just to be safe. You can regap your plugs to .040 but no more. I went with the Pertronix 8mm wire as well when I regapped just to be safe. Oh yeah, be careful with the installation of the Pertronix rotor. I pushed too hard and broke the first one I tried to install. Just warning you that's all. They will replace it free but you have to wait for the darn thing!lol
11) If you can, replace that damn rectifier, water cooled voltage regulator mess with an aftermarket alternator setup you would be ahead of the game. I have a 65 amp alternator that came with the kit. I paid like $400.00. Alot of money, I know. but great advantage to it just the same. No more dead batteries, boiled batteries (smell rotten eggs?) Hard starting and all the other problems that these things are notorious for. However, some old timers are still running it OEM and swear by the old points setup along with the original charging system. Make sure if you do put an alternator eventually, that you cap the two wires off from rectifier (generator) because you will still be putting out alot of A/C power and it could cause problems like a short which could cause a fire. I removed the guts and all out of my original charging system because of this potential risk. It was a bit of work removing the pulley off of crank via a puller but feel that I did the right thing. Like I said, you don't have to do what I did, but make sure the wires are capped off properly! These wires could possibly cause enough of a short to burn a hole in your oil pan if they were able to touch it causing all kinds of misery. Just warning you, that's all
12) Change your oil regularly and use good oil. I will not tell you what to use because everybody has their own oil that they like as long as the manual recommends it use it. Use a good Merc filter. I change my oil every 50-60 hrs. That's actually like almost the whole season. That's a good few hours on the water, you know? Call me anal, but my oil looks like Aunt Jemima syrup on the stick, not black and nasty and thinned out. I got too much money in this engine to abuse it. I would rather spend the money on oil than burn up the darn thing. It's just to much work to ignore.
13) They do sell a Mallory distributor for the 470's which I was told is superior to the OEM changeover to the Pertronix which is a halls effect triggering device for the ignition. Alot of guys go with the Pertronix because of the cost and most of the time it works pretty well if all else above is well and good.
14) Finally, make sure you replace your impellar on the sterndrive as per manual. Engine absolutely depends on this for cooling. You will overheat the engine for sure if the impeller goes south. You will be broke down with a possible overheat which means head gasket failure which means $$$$$$
I posted all this stuff tonight because I am trying to enlighten you about your engine system. all the best, Tom
 
thanks for all your help, we"ll see in a month or so. I think it may be ok, even the paint on the block is still shiny like new, time will tell, if I have problems I will check back with you.
 
hey guys, I was kind of looking things over last sat. I found that it only has a 2 barrel carb on it, even though the motor says 485 on it, so that makes it a 470 rite? someone must have switched it. maybe they had trouble with the 4 barrel.
 
Take heed of Tom's post #21..... he is Dead Spot ON.... and in particular item #10.

10) Pertronix electonic ignition system is a must for this engine. It makes cold starting alot easier, better power, better economy. Before you install the Pertronix make sure your distributor is not worn as mentioned above as per manual. It could cause detonation problems and possible engine failure if all is not well. The kit is relatively easy to install along with the 40,000 volt flamethrower coil. Don't go any higher than that with the coil because of the small distributor cap and heat issues just to be safe. You can regap your plugs to .040 but no more. I went with the Pertronix 8mm wire as well when I regapped just to be safe. Oh yeah, be careful with the installation of the Pertronix rotor. I pushed too hard and broke the first one I tried to install. Just warning you that's all. They will replace it free but you have to wait for the darn thing!lol
 
found out a few things in the last few days, the engine has been replaced with a 485, by the serial# looks like a 1982, don"t know why. it has aluminum intake and exhuast manifolds and the 4" heat exchanger. I did find the weep hole is clear, no coolant came out. the shop I bought it from said the guy traded it in last year for a bigger boat said the previous owner told him he had a rebuilt engine put in 5 or 6 yrs ago. he ran it last fall and it was ok. he ran it out of gas an covered it up for the winter. hope he is telling the truth.
 
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...the engine has been replaced with a 485...
I always understood that 485 was the nomeclature for a 4 BBL carbed 185 HP engine. Perhaps when the PO changed the manifolds he converted to a 2BBL carb...less cost. The 2BBL makes it a 470 or 170 HP.
 
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Ayuh,.... Yer stutterin',.... Whatcha Testin',..??

It has a 4BBL to make it 185 HP vs. the 470 170 HP. You would never be happy w/a 3.0L 135 HP in a 19' boat...4.3L 205 HP would be the way to go. I'd rather be riding a racehorse taking its good old time than be riding a pony working its arse off.

Ayuh,.... That's what mine is,...
If ya stay outa the 2ndaries, it don't hardly burn any gas....
It don't even burn a gallon an hour, trollin',... considerably Less actually...
 
this site sucks won"t respond most of the time, guyjg, the list I received shows 1980 to 1982 485 has a 2 barrel, I don"t know how it ended up in a 1990 boat, orig. owner says is orig. motor. he also said he only used it 2 or 3 times a yr. because wife hated boats, strange eh. the guy I bought it from lied.
 
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