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1991 Rinker 4.3l locked up

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rockola1971

Member
I picked up a 1991 Rinker with a 4.3L that has the bottom end locked up. Previous owner let boat sit in a few rains with carb removed from intake! I drained GALLONS of water from the engine before i finally got to the oil.

I have a GM crate engine 4.3l still in the crate that was made for the big box trucks, etc. It's a Heavy Duty engine according to the GM part# sticker on the crate. Not sure what that entails in a V6. 4 bolt mains?

Anyway the way i see it... Pull the marine 4.3L and marine paint the auto 4.3L and install the marine intake, accessory drives, etc. Get a new original marine cam or auto equivalent (if there is one) to what is in the marine V6 and install it in the auto V6.

Are the motor mount holes in the same place on the 2 engine blocks?

Comments, Questions, Advice, Suggestions?
 
And why would i do that since essentially the engine i have is the same what i would be buying for $1300 except mine needs just a marine cam and marine paint. Sorry but i dont buy all that "it has to be marine spec" nonsense. Maybe for a starter, alternator, carb, fuel pump, etc. but not the longblock assy.

Ive got 500 in my new crate motor that is sitting in my garage.
 
Marine head gaskets, brass core plugs, stainless steel valves........You don't have to buy into it, good luck. Sorry I did not give you the opinion you wanted to hear. I'm sure if you ask enough people you will get it.
 
Docksidemarineservices said:
Marine head gaskets, brass core plugs, stainless steel valves........You don't have to buy into it, good luck. Sorry I did not give you the opinion you wanted to hear. I'm sure if you ask enough people you will get it.
Click to expand...

Ok Ill give you the Head Gaskets...Im guessing the marine versions have SS where the water jackets align to. Most GM engines come factory with brass freeze plugs....and if they didnt...it costs about $30 for a brass freeze plug kit. Now why on earth would anyone need Stainless Steel valves in a marine engine? Its not like the valves/combustion chambers are going to be subjected to water.
 
use some marine head gaskets, change the cam, swap the accesories and bolt it in. it will run fine, just put a "truck block" in my boat and it has run fine without a an ounce of problems
'
 
All electrical components should be marine grade for safety reasons. Most other suggestions would be to get maximum useage out of the motor in the harsher marine environment.
 
I have a GM crate engine 4.3l still in the crate that was made for the big box trucks, etc. It's a Heavy Duty engine according to the GM part# sticker on the crate.
Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... What Vintage is the replacement motor,..??

You might run into it not havin' a mechanical fuel pump drilling...
If so, you'll need an electric fuel pump....

I'd go with the brass core plugs, 'n then just dress it up with the marine accessories...
A Truck cam is close enough to marine, to just Run it...

Steel shim gaskets haven't been used in along time,...
Composite head gaskets are fine...
'n, Ya, SSteel valves are Not necessary... Nice, but Not necessary...
 
Docksidemarineservices said:
Exactly.
Click to expand...
Oh i fully agree that "you" MUST use marine grade electrical accessories and even the carb. But to flat out tell anyone that you must use a marine engine/long block that is just outright fraudulous. Granted the freeze plugs should be brass and the head gaskets must be up to the task. If a person is capable enough to remove and reinstall an engine and align it correctly then they are surely capable of removing the automotive grade head gaskets and installing marine versions and take care of the freeze plugs.Of course you want "them" to buy a marine engine....you aren't exactly neutral biased.....you are in it for the profit which is what any business would want....but to do it by flat out lying to people.......they call that fraud and greed.
 
Add closed (anti-freeze) cooling to the block and don't worry about the gaskets & freeze plugs. MDS you use marinized alt., starter, fuel pump, dist. and coil.
 
rockola1971 said:
And why would i do that since essentially the engine i have is the same what i would be buying for $1300 except mine needs just a marine cam and marine paint. Sorry but i dont buy all that "it has to be marine spec" nonsense. Maybe for a starter, alternator, carb, fuel pump, etc. but not the longblock assy.
Ive got 500 in my new crate motor that is sitting in my garage.
Click to expand...

rockola1971 said:
Oh i fully agree that "you" MUST use marine grade electrical accessories and even the carb. But to flat out tell anyone that you must use a marine engine/long block that is just outright fraudulous. Granted the freeze plugs should be brass and the head gaskets must be up to the task. If a person is capable enough to remove and reinstall an engine and align it correctly then they are surely capable of removing the automotive grade head gaskets and installing marine versions and take care of the freeze plugs. Of course you want "them" to buy a marine engine....you aren't exactly neutral biased.....you are in it for the profit which is what any business would want.... but to do it by flat out lying to people.......they call that fraud and greed.
Click to expand...
rockola1971 said:
Are the motor mount holes in the same place on the 2 engine blocks?

Comments, Questions, Advice, Suggestions?
Click to expand...
You came to this forum asking for comments, advice and suggestions. You received several.
Now you are showing your uneducated side, and with your attitude, I'm going to pile on here!

1..... The brass plugs are "casting core" plugs... not freeze plugs. They have become known as "freeze plugs" in a misnomer fashion by back yard wanna-be mechanics.
2..... Camshaft profile is an important aspect of a correctly built marine engine. If you do not know why, then educate yourself!
3..... These are "Engines" ... motors are electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, etc. where I come from.
4..... As for the "Motor" mount question..... duh!

Normally, I'm rather polite and courteous with people here.... but you've set yourself up for this.


guyjg said:
Add closed (anti-freeze) cooling to the block and don't worry about the gaskets & freeze plugs. MDS you use marinized alt., starter, fuel pump, dist. and coil.
Click to expand...
Very true!
 
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RicardoMarine said:
You are showing your uneducated side, and with your attitude, I'm going to pile on here!

1..... The brass plugs are "casting core" plugs... not freeze plugs. They have become known as "freeze plugs" in a misnomer fashion by back yard wanna-be mechanics.
2..... Camshaft profile is an important aspect of a correctly built marine engine. If you do not know why, then educate yourself!
3..... These are "Engines" ... motors are electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, etc. where I come from.
4..... As for the "Motor" mount question..... duh!

Normally, I'm rather polite and courteous with people here.... but you've set yourself up for this.


Very true!
Click to expand...

Are you seriously using Semantics as a defense? freeze plug/core plug ... motor/engine....who cares? Would you like me to scan a copy of a GM service manual where it clearly references "freeze plug"? I guess technically i am a back-yard mechanic since both of my garages are in...well...my backyard. And as far as wanna-be....well that can't be true since i am very successful at all of the maintenance that i take on which includes restoring a 4th gen Corvette. And assuming you were in business in 1994-1998, while you were talking people into giving up their hard earned money for your snakeoil, I was workin on the F-14 Tomcat and the F/A-18C Hornet during my 4yr tour in the navy. You don't even want to know how much of your "hard" earned federal tax money was spent on my education.....which you know nothing about so you are not even remotely qualified to comment about! ;)

And for the rest that want to know I will post up what i run into during my MOTOR swap.
 
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Wow, and with an Ego to boot!
Is this is how our US Navy teaches our young servicemen to treat their fellow man???? Hmmmm!
You may have learned how to service the F-14 Tomcat and the F/A-18C Hornet during your 4yr tour.... but you learned very little about getting along with people in the private sector.

As said..... you brought this on yourself as it would appear to me that you came here with an already conceived notion of what you wanted to hear, and what you did NOT want to hear.
If you are this sharp, why are you asking these question and asking for advice from us?

I do wish you the best of luck! And thank you for the four years of service.

.
 
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RicardoMarine said:
Wow, and an Ego to boot!
As said..... you brought this on yourself as it would appear to me that you came here with an already conceived notion of what you wanted to hear, and what you did NOT want to hear.
If you are this sharp, why are you asking these question and asking for advice from us?

I do wish you the best of luck!

.
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LMAO...now its a "ego" issue? Sounds like to me that you have the "size" problem...not me. Very true though, I did not want to hear the lame excuse provided by typically people in the marine business that "you cannot us a automotive engine" no matter what. Which you and I know that is so far from the truth.

I am "that sharp"....sharp enough to keep from feeding "your" monopoly. I am asking for advice from people that can provide some info from experience in this type of swap or atleast an unbiased based discussion...which obviously you can't be a part of anymore.

You ave no idea about my "ego" nor education....but i promise that if you want to get into "who's is bigger" match my degree, work experience and projects completed will make your marine business look like a weekend doghouse building project! ;) I earned every bit of my "ego" with all my hard work and accomplishments.
 
rockola1971 said:
LMAO...now its a "ego" issue? Sounds like to me that you have the "size" problem...not me. Very true though, I did not want to hear the lame excuse provided by typically people in the marine business that "you cannot us a automotive engine" no matter what. Which you and I know that is so far from the truth.

I am "that sharp"....sharp enough to keep from feeding "your" monopoly. I am asking for advice from people that can provide some info from experience in this type of swap or atleast an unbiased based discussion...which obviously you can't be a part of anymore.

You ave no idea about my "ego" nor education....but i promise that if you want to get into "who's is bigger" match my degree, work experience and projects completed will make your marine business look like a weekend doghouse building project! ;) I earned every bit of my "ego" with all my hard work and accomplishments.
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Wow, Dude,... Give it up,... This is an open forum, 'n ya get ALL kinds of answers...

It's up to you to pick the answers ya want,... Not to be pilin' on the responders....

I posted yer Answers in post #9, 'n a few questions to qualify those answers...
Are ya wantin' to swap yer Motors,..??
Or just start a pissin' match with long time responders,..??
 
bondo said:
Wow, Dude,... Give it up,... This is an open forum, 'n ya get ALL kinds of answers...

It's up to you to pick the answers ya want,... Not to be pilin' on the responders....

I posted yer Answers in post #9, 'n a few questions to qualify those answers...
Are ya wantin' to swap yer Motors,..??
Or just start a pissin' match with long time responders,..??
Click to expand...

I reckon you are right...i just don't have patience with people that are obviously trying to screw people over. Thanks for pointing out that i was getting off on a tangent.

Back to your questions. First I do have the original marine version engine complete still in the boat so all the marine accessories including starter, alternator, carb, etc are all there. The GM Crate motor #12515469 I have is the 4.3L LB4 RPO Code Heavy Duty w/o BS (Balance shaft). It is suppose to be a replacement for the GMC Syclone which was twin intercooled turbocharged 4.3L back in 1991/92. The manufacture date on the crate sticker shows 5/12/04 GM no longer offers this crate motor. I purchased it about 2yrs ago from a GM Dealership that had to close down because of the fallout of GM going bankrupt.
 
rockola1971 said:
Oh i fully agree that "you" MUST use marine grade electrical accessories and even the carb. But to flat out tell anyone that you must use a marine engine/long block that is just outright fraudulous. Granted the freeze plugs should be brass and the head gaskets must be up to the task. If a person is capable enough to remove and reinstall an engine and align it correctly then they are surely capable of removing the automotive grade head gaskets and installing marine versions and take care of the freeze plugs.Of course you want "them" to buy a marine engine....you aren't exactly neutral biased.....you are in it for the profit which is what any business would want....but to do it by flat out lying to people.......they call that fraud and greed.
Click to expand...

With the cost of the cam, SS valves, brass core plugs and the head gaskets plus your time. You can purchase an engine ready to go with a 2 year warranty. The only thing the same between the two engines is the block, the head castings, the rods and the crank.

I did not say it would not work, it is just the half-assed way to repair your boat. Installing an engine built for the automotive/truck line in your boat and calling it a "marine engine" would be fraudulent.

There is no pay involved here, this is strictly a free advice site. Take it or leave it.

BTW Check that intake manifold thoroughly especially below the thermostat. Some more free advice
 
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Docksidemarineservices said:
With the cost of the cam, SS valves, brass core plugs and the head gaskets plus your time. You can purchase an engine ready to go with a 2 year warranty. The only thing the same between the two engines is the block, the head castings, the rods and the crank.

I did not say it would not work, it is just the half-assed way to repair your boat. Installing an engine built for the automotive/truck line in your boat and calling it a "marine engine" would be fraudulent.

There is no pay involved here, this is strictly a free advice site. Take it or leave it.

BTW Check that intake manifold thoroughly especially below the thermostat. Some more free advice
Click to expand...

How exactly does the cost of a cam, SS valves (which I don't need), brass freeze plugs and marine head gasket even remotely come close to $1300?
Cam $280 if i buy into the marine monopoly version
Brass Freeze plug kit $30
Marine Head gaskets $90 for the pair which i probably wont need if my engine has the composite head gaskets
Marine Intake gaskets $40 If i decide they are even needed.
And my time doesnt cost me anything. Im not on anyones schedule but mine.

What exactly am i checking the intake manifold for? The intake is coming off my marine engine.
 
rockola1971 said:
First I do have the original marine version engine complete still in the boat so all the marine accessories including starter, alternator, carb, etc are all there. The GM Crate motor #12515469 I have is the 4.3L LB4 RPO Code Heavy Duty w/o BS (Balance shaft). It is suppose to be a replacement for the GMC Syclone which was twin intercooled turbocharged 4.3L back in 1991/92. The manufacture date on the crate sticker shows 5/12/04 GM no longer offers this crate motor. I purchased it about 2yrs ago from a GM Dealership that had to close down because of the fallout of GM going bankrupt.
Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... Hopefully, both the take out motor, 'n yer replacement motor has the drillings for the mechanical fuel pump in 'em,...
The take out motor Should be pre-balance shaft,...so's that's Good...

The only thing I ain't so sure of is,...
What Cam mighta been used in the turbo'ed motor...
Bein' a blown application, I can't feature it bein' awfully Big, or a problem because of such...
Might be worth diggin' into, to see if a cam card can be found with it's Spec's...

Anyways,.... I'm really not seein' any Problems with yer plan, at this point....
Be sure to drop by, 'n tell Us how it goes together....:)

What exactly am i checking the intake manifold for? The intake is coming off my marine engine.
Click to expand...

Cracks,... It has a water cross-over in it, 'n it was also open to the elements....
 
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rockola1971 said:
How exactly does the cost of a cam, SS valves (which I don't need), brass freeze plugs and marine head gasket even remotely come close to $1300?
Cam $280 if i buy into the marine monopoly version
Brass Freeze plug kit $30
Marine Head gaskets $90 for the pair which i probably wont need if my engine has the composite head gaskets
Marine Intake gaskets $40 If i decide they are even needed.
And my time doesnt cost me anything. Im not on anyones schedule but mine.

What exactly am i checking the intake manifold for? The intake is coming off my marine engine.
Click to expand...


My original post I said to "Sell the engine you have and get a rebuilt marine long block for about 1300.00 with a two year warranty."

If you sold your new in the box crate engine for $700 to 1000 you would only be spending 300-600 or so on a complete engine with a warranty and all the gaskets to put it together. You are going to spend more than $600 for all the parts needed including the gasket set. 500 + 600 =1100 and no warranty.
 
The intake is coming off my marine engine.
Click to expand...
It won't work...wrong bolt pattern. If it's a duece buy a 4 BBL intake and carb...it could up the HP from 170 to 205. The coupler may not fit for the same issue...not 100% sure. You will probably want new exh. mans. w/a new engine...stay away from GLM; Barr and Osco are good AM mans. Take a good look at the shutters and the "Y" pipe; it may be corroded internally.

Just my recommendations: There are excellent 1 wire dist. available. You'll need a diff. OP switch to control the fuel pump and send the OP to the gauge. Get a quality marine fuel pump and sealed relay. Install a momentary PTM switch to prime the carb w/fuel...makes it easier to start by filling up the bowl so the starter doesn't have to work much. Get a PM starter; stronger w/less weight...junk the old one. Upgrade the engine wire harness...the one you have is 21 years old and probably corroded. For a few bucks more replace the boat harness to match the engine. Give the alternator a once over if it's an old one. If it's a 3 wire 60 amp upgrade it to a modern single wire 100 amp. The change will allow you to add a charge isolator for charging multiple batteries. Change the coupler if the splines are rounded or if it's original.

Verify the floor, stringers, engine mount bases and transom are solid. I have replaced them all on a 19' Barettta...let me know if you want some ideas to save some money on the work--not necessary to use marine grade plywood. If the floor is soft in a few spots change it...you will probably find the floatation foam is waterlogged. While the floor is off pull the fuel tank and clean it...change the filler and vent hoses esp. if they are buried in the foam. IF the tank is fiberglass or a side fill trash it and get a plastic rear fill...no need to have access thru the floor. If you replace the floor don't use cleated nuts for the seat bases...use a 1/4" SS plate drilled and tapped to the seat base bolt pattern. Aluminum plates will work...use neversieze on the SS bolts. Install an OD oil reservior...it will keep the OD seals from blowing out and let you gllance at the OD oil level. The AM type don't have alarms but are cheaper.
 
guyjg said:
It won't work...wrong bolt pattern. If it's a duece buy a 4 BBL intake and carb...it could up the HP from 170 to 205. The coupler may not fit for the same issue...not 100% sure. You will probably want new exh. mans. w/a new engine...stay away from GLM; Barr and Osco are good AM mans. Take a good look at the shutters and the "Y" pipe; it may be corroded internally.

Just my recommendations: There are excellent 1 wire dist. available. You'll need a diff. OP switch to control the fuel pump and send the OP to the gauge. Get a quality marine fuel pump and sealed relay. Install a momentary PTM switch to prime the carb w/fuel...makes it easier to start by filling up the bowl so the starter doesn't have to work much. Get a PM starter; stronger w/less weight...junk the old one. Upgrade the engine wire harness...the one you have is 21 years old and probably corroded. For a few bucks more replace the boat harness to match the engine. Give the alternator a once over if it's an old one. If it's a 3 wire 60 amp upgrade it to a modern single wire 100 amp. The change will allow you to add a charge isolator for charging multiple batteries. Change the coupler if the splines are rounded or if it's original.

Verify the floor, stringers, engine mount bases and transom are solid. I have replaced them all on a 19' Barettta...let me know if you want some ideas to save some money on the work--not necessary to use marine grade plywood. If the floor is soft in a few spots change it...you will probably find the floatation foam is waterlogged. While the floor is off pull the fuel tank and clean it...change the filler and vent hoses esp. if they are buried in the foam. IF the tank is fiberglass or a side fill trash it and get a plastic rear fill...no need to have access thru the floor. If you replace the floor don't use cleated nuts for the seat bases...use a 1/4" SS plate drilled and tapped to the seat base bolt pattern. Aluminum plates will work...use neversieze on the SS bolts. Install an OD oil reservior...it will keep the OD seals from blowing out and let you gllance at the OD oil level. The AM type don't have alarms but are cheaper.
Click to expand...

The old intake will work on my crate motor (both 13 bolt) but i am considering going to the 4BBL intake/carb as you said. I think it would be worth it for the extra HP. The crate motor is NOT setup for a mechanical fuel pump so electric it is. I am quite familar with the OP switch setup for the FI engines. The fuel tank is alum. and it is on the port side in the floor. The boat is a 1991 Rinker Captiva 206. I do need a port side trim panel that goes down the side of the boat on the inside. Any ideas?

Is there a problem with the alphas blowing seals? I have a 1978 BMC 18.5' with a pre alpha drive and 350 merc. and I never had any problems with seals blowing. The OD oil reservoir sounds like a good idea, i will look into that setup.

Appreciate you taking the time for all the heads up!
 
This is what i would do. Pull the motor out of the boat and place it side by side with the new crate motor." If " the flywheel bolt pattern match's the bolt pattern of the old motor, your in like flint.

The motor mounts are the same. The mani's will be ok to change over if good and the riser and elbow will fit.
You need the alt, the starter and the dist off the old motor cause they are marine. Or at least they should be. What you will be doing is " dressing " the long block.

91' had a manual fuel pump. If you have the boss for the pump your good to go with the manual pump. However i don't think you do.So you need the oil sender with the low oil cutoff for the fuel pump. Just a switch actually.
If you want part numbers go to the top of the page and pull up a current 4.3 to see part numbers.
Carb and intake will be ok from the old motor.

Key here is the bolt pattern, start there, post back, be nice and i will help you along with all the great mechanical minds on this site. There is a gasket kit for, mani's, risers, t-stat housing, all in one box. Want help with that just ask.

Good luck !
 
You'll need the linkage bracket for the 4 BBL. No issue w/A1 seals...reservior keeps a light internal pressure in the OD in the event of a small seal failure the oil pushes out when it cools down instead of creating a vaccuum and sucking in water as the drive cools.

Tank should be fine...check the fill/vent hose integrity due to their age. Mine were leaking thru the hosewall into the foam. No problem w/trim panel. A rear fill tank does not require floor access panels.
 
My tank is just slightly exposed forward of the motor area in the floor. I have a stern mounted (port side) tank in my Bonanza 185 boat. Never had any problems with it, Of course it was stern mounted and fairly easy to access. I will replace all the fuel hoses/lines just because they aren't expensive and no point in dealing with headaches in the floor later like you said. I wont half-ass the important stuff and i dont like doing things twice.
 
rockola1971 said:
I wont half-ass the important stuff and i dont like doing things twice.
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And that's all that any of us were trying to help you with from the Get-Go!
No sales pitch.... no ill intent. Only your best interest in mind, as we would for any member!

******************************************

Let's retrace the steps here, and perhaps you will see how this evolved and perhaps how you came across to us.

Post #1 you lay out your concerns.

Post #2 Chris makes a good suggestion to you. None of us are able to see where Chris attempted to make a sales pitch.

Port #3 you asked why, and then went on to explain yourself as to the camshaft that would need to be swapped out. (looks to me that you already knew a portion of the answer)

Post #4, Chris in a friendly and polite way says;
"Sorry I did not give you the opinion you wanted to hear. I'm sure if you ask enough people you will get it."
Click to expand...

Post #5 you become a bit smart a$$ed with your response. Very uncalled for!


Post #8 Chris quotes Despy and agrees.

Post #10 you say;
"But to flat out tell anyone that you must use a marine engine/long block that is just outright fraudulous."
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Again... no one said any such thing like that to you. These are "Suggestions", not marching instructions.

I won't even copy your text in post #15.... It speaks for itself!


Then you go on to make these comments;

"Of course you want them to buy a marine engine....you aren't exactly neutral biased.....you are in it for the profit which is what any business would want....but to do it by flat out lying to people.......they call that fraud and greed."
Click to expand...
"i just don't have patience with people that are obviously trying to screw people over."
Click to expand...
(I would love to hear that one explained)


Then you post a comment that brings some reality back in;
"Thanks for pointing out that i was getting off on a tangent."
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You were somehow able to say that to Bill (bondo) but not Chris or myself.... particularly Chris who was first to offer you a suggestion, and who was first to be slapped in the face (metaphorically speaking)! I personally think that Chris is being overly generous by even continuing in this thread.

"Appreciate you taking the time for all the heads up!"
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This is the first polite comment that you made.


So I have a question for you.
Did you think that we'd react positively to your attitude shown in your responses, and did you think that your Navy experience somehow qualifies you to puff your chest up and show blatant disrespect to the forum members here?
In retrospect, I hope that you are able to see how this looked to us!

******************************************************
Let's get passed this now and move on!

Have you bothered to see if this Turbo ready 4.3L offers the correct C/R if naturally aspirated?

"I am quite familar with the OP switch setup for the FI engines."
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FYI: the oil pressure switch is NOT an FI only requirement. The N/O oil pressure switch is a requirement regardless of the fuel delivery system (carburetor or FI). The purpose for the N/O switch is to shut down fuel pump and pressure in the absence of engine RPM (i.e., NO oil pressure). This is a USCG requirement. What you do for a momentary start by-pass is up to you. But this must be "momentary".

As for the head gaskets, this has to do with the fire rings and dissimilar metals being cooled by river/lake/ocean water that is not PH correct. These are known to eventually fail if not correct for an "open" system.

These are a few of the things that I'd be concerned with.

Again.... best of luck.
 
just my 2 cents,i'am no salesman or marine mech,cant fly jets,just a redneck happy boater,but i went through the same thing with a auto motor i spent lots of $$$$$ on a auto motor in my 97 baja with a 350 v-8, i think they r right about the marine engine, pushrods,valves,and springs replaced not once but twice, with new heads, that gets into your wallet,every weekend it was something, so what i did was put a marine jasper engine in,now it starts and idles fine runs like a top. i have been on this site for about 3 years when i had a promblem i would ask these guys and guess what it was fixed, lots of experience on here trust me i know!!!!! good luck and keep us posted!
 
These guys would **** their pants if they saw what all was in mine, lol. just have to pay attention and use "marine" parts when needed. GM doesnt have a speacial division just for marine use. Merc and Volvo buy the components from GM and taylor them to a marine application. as far as carbs, starters, alternators and what not, marine is a must. as far as hard goods goes a block is a block, a head is a head, a crank is a crank and so on and so on. you can use auto cams in boats as long as they rpm and torque range are acceptable and the specs will not allow for reversion to occur. long story short auto and marine stuff will cross over with each other but you cant just bolt a bunch of parts together and hope it works, you have to do some homework
 
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