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ethanol questions and/or discussion(4 stroke)

papyson

Outstanding Contributor
i just purchased a new 60hp merc bigfoot and when banging around the web and looking at this forum i want to do everything i can to prevent ethanol problems...there is a new canister type water filter on the fuel line that was installed by the dealer....i am using stabil in the gas....the marine stabil is twice the price of the old stabil..whats the difference and is stabil what i should be using?the boat has a 18 gallon built in aluminum fuel tank....should the tank be topped off after the boat is pulled out of the water...this boat stays at my camp....it may be used 4-5 days straight and then may set on the trailer a month or more...maximum condensation environment.....i have been running 2 stroke for 50 years and would appreciate any tips on preventive maintenance that anyone has on a 4 stroke...thanks...Carl
 
The new motors should have the E resistant hoses.But be cautious, check the hoses on a regular basis.
E will separate after a while if it sets.That's quite a while.
They sell E stabilizers if you let it set for a month at a time then I'd use them.Otherwise not needed.
Stabil is for long periods like winter.Not needed for summer use.
You're doing good by keeping tank full.Less air the less condensation.
You can install a water seperator filter with a sight glass.More expensive but better for the brain(less worry).
Follow the owners manual for maint.J
 
Thank you very much for the response.....i dont have a problem yet....i am just trying to avoid one....after doing some research i found a list on the web of non ethanol gas stations by parish(county) in louisiana....i called a few locally and about half of those listed sell non ethanol gas....one is close to the house and on the way to camp....3 are listed in camp area and i will check them out next trip...i follow the owners manual and always do maintenance etc...but i think i can take the tool box out of the boat except for extra hoses etc...there is not a lot you can diagnose on the water with these computer driven motors...i dont really want to start hauling gas 75 miles to the camp but i will to avoid ethanol if i have to....i am retired and fish alone most of the time and run anywhere between 12 and 20 miles to fish and some days i dont see another boat....to spend the night in a 17 foot open boat with the alligators is not my thing...thanks again
 
I keep hearing about those non-ethanol stations, and I can only speculate that their gas has to be YEARS old. Why? It's illegal to sell non-oxigenated gas for cars. ALL present gas uses ethanol as its oxigenate where the previous oxigenate was MBTE, which is now illegal to make (but not to sell, to use up stocks).

I'd be careful buying that stuff!

Jeff
 
the ethanol laws vary by state as i understand it...it is still legal to sell in louisiana but not easy to find as the major refineries are all following epa rules....the non ethanol gasoline in some states is illegal to sell unless its being used in boats,lawnmowers etc...there are 319950 boats registered in louisiana so there is a market...it is actually confusing to try to find out what is going on with ethanol rules...they are now talking about going to a 15% mix which is not recommended for even cars and trucks older than 2000 model year...http://www.petelandrysrealgas.com/Articles/Article-08042011.pdf
 
in town has non ethanol for $1.00 more a gallon than the garbage gas. for the longest time you could pump it into your car or truck. that stopped for 6 or so months but now can do it again. we use the non in the golf cart and chain saws or anything that doesnt get refilled every couple of weeks. the next non station is 30 miles away and is usually busy as well. the corn gas has melted a pulse pump on an amphibian (sp?) and the fuel hoses and the pulse pump on our johnrude outboard. it seems if it sits with the s**t gas in it all goes south. carb a rectomys are mostly getting melted fuel pumps and lines out of the needle/seat and jets. 10% max is BS wait till it goes to 15 then it will probably be more like 35 or 40 maybe more. just my $.02
 
I hear you, brother, but the mega-corporation lobbyists and their political henchmen care not for what's good for America, only themselves (and their enviro-whacko constituents). We the People mean nothing.

Jeff
 
I have found the 89 octane to be around 10% where the 87 could be a lot more, I have been adding stabil marine and startron to anything stored and seems to help. I live in PA and also keep calling the politicals telling them with the helpof the internet there useless asses can be replaced, someday they will send me to gitmo but until then I will be a thorn in there side.
 
I only burn pure gas in my outboard and small engine power tools. It's readily available in SW Ohio. We don't see the 85% corn gas here due to the shipping costs. Unless your engines are flex fuel you can only run the 10-15% moonshine gas. I avoid that crap whenever I travel. I have a Nissan V-6 that requires 91 octane but has a big warning in the owners manual that says do not use .

I had a flex fuel ford explorer a few years back and drove it to my BF's funeral in Nebraska where 85% moonshine gas is made. The flex fuel vehicles run great on it but get poorer mileage--a few MPGs less. But, it's about 20-25% cheaper per gallon there. I liked the 85% moonshine gas. The injectors get a good cleaning and it just ran great but lower MPGs. The problem is the car mfgrs. don't make all vehicles flex fuel. Hell, I'd rather drink it than burn it. As long as the mega/corporatefarmers pay the lobbyists who in turn pay the congressmen and senators to cram this 10/15% corn moonshine down our throats, we are going to get it whether we like it or not.
 
Many moons ago when I was young and thought I was the Rambo of the whatever!! We had what was called a M35 truck which went on anything at all,from burnt oil to moonshine,potín here,and a personal opinion,I think these "Experts" are spouting s$%t to the betterment of their own pockets. How better to keep the $'s rolling in than to say "We're all going to melt when the world overheats" Just a personal opinion.
PS It would run on whiskey just as well but that was a waste of whiskey. Again a personal opinion:D:D
 
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The sad fact is that, since we are burning up our FOOD, and since over 4,000 items in any grocery store contain corn products, the cost of food has escalated. To some, that means less to eat--especially in impoverished nations.

Jeff
 
Here ya go direct from NMMA and Mercury Marine.....

Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
By Bob Adriance( Editor of Seaworthy, the BoatUS Marine Insurance damage-avoidance publication)

It's time we get to the bottom of how E10 is affecting our engines

In the few years since ethanol began to be widely used in the United States, a lot has been written about its properties, the problems it's created, and how to best cope with its possible effects. Some of the advice has been based on science, some on hearsay. While E10 is not an ideal fuel – and E15 could cause serious problems for marine engines – at least a few myths about ethanol have arisen with the potential to do more harm than good:
Myth #1: Ethanol-enhanced gasoline (E10) loses octane much faster than regular gasoline.

Many mechanics believe that octane loss during winter storage could be great enough to damage an engine when it's run in the spring. These same mechanics will often recommend leaving the tank almost empty so that fresh gasoline can be added in the spring to raise depleted octane levels. While all gasoline loses octane as it ages, ethanol-enhanced gasoline loses octane at about the same rate as regular gasoline, according to Jim Simnick, a technical advisor at BP Global Fuels Technology, and Lew Gibbs, a senior engineering consultant and Chevron Fellow. The two men have over 75 years of combined experience working with gasoline and both agree that the loss of octane over the winter would not be sufficient to damage an engine. Note, however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer — an antioxidant — whenever the boat will be idle for long periods.

The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things to increase the chances of phase separation:

It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation.

It's interesting to note that in areas of the Midwest that have been dealing with E10 for over a decade, topping off tanks is common practice. (As an alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of phase separation.)

If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less moist air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate.

Myth #2: E10 attracts water, so it's important to install a water separator to prevent the water reaching the engine.

Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would also have the potential to damage your engine.

Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline. These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he says has sometimes remedied the problem.

Myth #3: Certain additives can prevent phase separation?

Both Gibbs and Simnick said that the additives that eliminate water may work incrementally to protect against phase separation, but Joe Simnick stressed that no additives will stand up to a good slug of water. Lew Gibbs added that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry, keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable.

E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the
system 'dry.'"
 
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