VP 280 Primary Drive Shaft Question

I have a 280 drive and am concerned about the condition of the drive shaft bearing(s). It seems that there are several posting regarding this issue and I gather that there are either one or two bearings dependent on what out drive you have. I have three (3) manuals the latest being the VP workshop manual and all three give the drive shaft almost no information. At the moment the engine is out of the boat and the outdrive is also removed so it is a great time to service the bearing(s). The drive carries a part number 2810X77B. The X in that part number is not readable. Could you please tell me if the drive shaft has a single bearing or two bearings from this part number. The stories about the snap rings have me worried. Thanks in advance for any info you can give me.
jsrocky203

Typically, the 4 cylinder engines have one bearing inside the flywheel cover. Your serial number with the "B" suffix indicates that it did not originally come off of an engine with a 4 cylinder engine but those are interchangeable so it's not definate. It's the engine that determines the flywheel cover type.

Joe pretty much nails it. The 28 represents the 280 series, the remaining numbers represent the production, and the B represents an original V-8 ratio (1.61:1).
These numbers are good if no one has substituted a drive, and if you do have the V-8.
If your flywheel cover is the 1 pc red unit, it will use the double bearing PDS.
Bearings will be a 6206 and a 6007 "open" bearing.... no Fried Rice or BBQ Pork bearings... US, Japanese or German only.
The seals will be 35x62x7mm in a Timken or TCM.
If you will go here, I've put together some links to threads that will explain the procedure that includes pre-filling the grease cavity, etc.

Basically, your PDS bearings can be thought of as the equivilant of a "Gimbal" bearing, if the AQ series drives were a Gimbal system drive.
These fail due to lack of knowledge and proper servicing.

If you replace these, and lube at the correct interval with engine running, you will avoid a failure and you'll be good for another 15 years or so.

You can also replace the two bearing crosses if they appear to be going.
The Spicer 5-1306X is a good replacement for these.

Next item for any V-8 transmission, will be main drive gear bearings.
This too is a good preventative measure against failure.
I'm finding that about 85-90% of the V-8 transmissions by now are in need of this bearing replacement.

Shift mech eccentric piston seal would also be on my list.

Good luck... post back with any questions.

.

Thank you very much for your quick response to my question. Sorry, I did not tell you the whole story in advance. The boat was repowered with a brand new Volvo Penta 572 V8 Engine in 1993. The previous engine was a VP 305 V8. I am in the process of taking the aft seal out as we speak but need to find the correct tools to pull it. I will keep you updated and thanks again for your encouragement. jsrocky203

jsrocky203, I'm not sure that I understand you snap ring concerns in post #1, and your question regarding correct tools in post #4...... Can you elaborate?
Also, did you go to this web page?

I have what may be an important question for you, since I now know that this engine was replaced with a 1993.
What color is your Flywheel Cover (aka bell housing in the auto world) ?
Does it offer a grease fitting down low behind the engine's ignition distributor?

The answer to this will make a huge difference as to your PDS approach.

.

Rick,
I have done extensive scrounging around on the net and have read of the need to modify and use a long pair of needle nose pliers to get to the snap rings for the pds. So far I have gotten the seal out, and the first snap ring out and can now see the second snap ring right in front of the bearing. My bell housing is red. The engine was a complete replacment with freshwater cooling system and a 2 barrell carb. I bought a pair of sanp ring pliers to get the 1st snap ring out but could never get to the 2nd with the pair I got from Sears.

Yep... a good ole looooooong needle nose with tips modified, will do the trick for the FWD-most snap ring and the AFT-most one.

OK... since the F/C is red, that tells me which one it is.
Yours will be double bearing PDS....., and will need to have the engine removed in order to access the FWD bearing.
Had the later Charcoal Gray F/C been installed, the PDS will be a single bearing, and all will remove from AFT.

.

Hey Rick look what I've got!!!! Do you think I could make a living renting out that special tool that I modified to get at that second *&%$#@&* snap ring? At first I was sorry that I had started this project but once started there was no stopping and am I ever glad I did it. The bearing is totally frozen. I must have a hybrid drive as there is only the one bearing that you can see still on the shaft. That bearing is a 6206. Thank you thank you for all your help.
jsrocky203

OK... I'm not sure what's going on here. You said that the F/C was red... correct????

Unless this is an older Ford Engine with single bearing, and the pilot bushing in the crankshaft......
OR, the late model GM SBC F/C... this would not be year correct for you... but will work.

Perhaps you can bring us up to speed with more photos.... and include the engine/drive.
With more info, I can tell you more of what's going on here.
Could be that someone has installed an incorrect PDS.

Rick,
I removed the engine type/serial number plate from the engine and have misplaced it or I would take a picture of it but we are definitely talking a Volvo Penta 572 engine. I was told the 57 stood for 5.7 liter and the 2 indicated a 2 barrel carb. Here are the pics you asked for.

Please excuse the mess at the transom. I had some extensive fiberglass work done and have not cleaned it up yet.
jsrocky203

OK.... I see what's going on here.
You do not have a "Year Correct" flywheel cover for this boat..... it is correct for that engine, however.
It's a non-issue, just take note.

Good news is......... this single bearing PDS can be removed from aft without engine removal.
Bad news is......... it is also non-serviceable.... meaning that it must be a 6206 sealed bearing, and that there is NO grease fitting on the flywheel cover.
These bearings must be replaced more frequently than the year correct double bearing set up, when serviced routinely.

This PDS also requires that the crankshaft have the correct bronze bushing installed.
The Borg Warner drive coupler will not center this PDS without the bronze bushing.

All is good, just take note.

Oh..... no Chinese bearings here.... use the highest electric motor grade that you can purchase... and make sure that it is a sealed bearing.

.

Rick,
Thank you again for all of your help and support for my project. I am glad that the engine was out of the boat as it made it so easy to remove the PDS. I am sorry that it took so long to identify what was what but that was my fault for not giving you all of the information from the beginning. I will be sure to tell everything up front the next time I need help which will probably be soon and often. The boat is a 1975 Bayliner Nisqually a 24 foot fly bridge cruiser. I am sure the outdrive and the replaced 305 engine were original. The shop that swapped the engine for me had a lot of trouble as the exhaust Y pipe had to be changed and modified in order to install the new engine. We (the shop and I) had several many chats with the tech support people at Volvo Penta before all was right with the world. I still refer to the engine as new because it only has 500 hours on it. A new hour meter was installed along with the motor. Please keep up th good work and than goodness there is a place like this to come to for help.
jsrocky203

jsrocky203 said:

............ The shop that swapped the engine for me had a lot of trouble as the exhaust Y pipe had to be changed and modified in order to install the new engine. We (the shop and I) had several many chats with the tech support people at Volvo Penta before all was right with the world. .........

Click to expand...

A potential RED Flag here if this Y-pipe was not used with the correct "double exhaust relief" transom shield!


Do you have two (2) rubber hooks visible at Port/Stbd side of the transom shield??????

.

Rick,
No, I do not see any rubber hooks on the transom shield. Please bear in mind that the engine swap was done in 1993 and the boat has been used every season since with no problems. The only reason I am where I am now is that the aluminum gas tank leaked over twenty gallons of fuel into the bilges!!!! You would have heard the boom in Oregon but God watches out for fools and little children and I fit both categories. As an aside I am wondering why Volvo did not use a sealed bearing in this application. The space between the two seals was full of grease but as you saw there was no way for me to add grease. I have been surfing the web for bearings and talk about confusion. I have seen 6206 bearings for less than ten ($10.00) dollars up to over one hundred thirty ($130.00) dollars. I assume that I want stainless steel but do I need ceramic balls? I hope this posting is not getting carried away.
jsrocky203

No..... you are not getting carried away.... we all want you to get the job done, and done correctly.
Don't mean to sound gruff..... but I had already presented this to you in an earlier post
If in doubt, take your old bearing in with you..... if they can't read the number, it can be matched up by dimensions.

Jsrocky,
First, these are a carbon steel bearing... not SS.
SS would not hold up under these conditions.

You need a 6206 with an extension # on it that makes it a sealed bearing.
Any bearing expert will know which p/n this is.

If puchased in a Koyo, SKF, or a good German bearing, this will be the same, identical, size, quality, etc etc, that you'll get from Volvo Penta, minus the Volvo Penta name, p/n and packaging.
You can spend $14 on this bearing........., or you can spend $85 or so from Volvo Penta......... your call.


If you want a slightly higher grade metallic seal, purchase a 21Z94G SKF 6206 2Z/3GJN.
Your PDS won't know the difference!

NOTE: if you have water in this area, you have much larger issues to begin with, and signs of defered maintenance will be apparent.

Your call!

If you'll post two photos of your shield... Port/Stbd side, I can tell you if it is correct for the Y-pipe.

.

Rick,
I went to the local Bearings-R-Us store in Teterboro NJ and bought a 6206 2RSJEM SKF bearing plus the two seals. The box and the bearing both say "Made in U.S.A.". The guy at the counter got a kick out of your "no fried rice or BBQ Pork bearings" remark. Now that I have all of the parts I am ready to install everything back into the boat. You indicated that I am going to have to service this bearing more often since it cannot be greased. Have you a feel for how often I should replace it once a year, every other, etc. Our boating season here in the north east is very short and with a disabled wife to care for I do not get a lot of boat time.
I also took the pictures you requested. I hope these are what you need because I assumed that since you were refering to the Y pipe you would want to see the the shield from the inside.
Thanks again for all of your help and guidance. I know you have helped me and I am sure that other people will fine this post of interest and value at some point in time.
jsrocky203

Did anybody ever come up with an automotive part number for the bearing and seals? The autoparts stores around here can't or won't find the seal using the 35x62x7 dimensions.

Bicounty,
The seals I got were from ISP International Seal & Packing Co., Inc. The address is 11 Brookside Drive Wilmington, DE 19804, 800 651 2551 www.intsealpack.com. Their part number is 35X62X7AN. Hope this help you.
jsrocky203

If you guys will buy these directly from a major bearing supplier, you'll have much better luck finding what you're looking for.
Don't rely on an Auto Parts Store for these types of things...... they're heading right to the phone anyway.

jsrocky203 , the photos that I need to see, will be of the out side of the shield.... the drive side, both Port and Stbd.

.

Bicounty,
I agree with Rick in regards to trying to get boat parts at an auto parts store. Th minute you mention the word boat their eyes glaze over and they forget how to speak English. They know nothing about boats and do not have any part catalogs to look parts up in.

Rick,
You are shaming me into displaying my bebarnacled stern but here goes as I would like to hear the final story and your thoughts on my boat.

jsrocky203

Rick,
I am sure you know this but it will be a heads up for everyone else who has a single bearing PDS. The rearmost seal is a 35X62X7 mm seal but the forward one, in front of the bearing is a 35X52X7 seal. I had to go dumpster diving to retrieve the old seal to be sure I was correct. I have already installed the new sealed bearing on the PDS and as soon as I get the correct forward seal I will complete the installation of the PDS. I am sure that all will heave a sight of relief when this post is done.

I'm glad i'm not the only one with a hibrid!. I'm glad to see i'm not the only one who sees the potential for "scoop away" buckets - good luck!
ted

jsrocky203 said:

Rick,
I am sure you know this but it will be a heads up for everyone else who has a single bearing PDS. The rearmost seal is a 35X62X7 mm seal but the forward one, in front of the bearing is a 35X52X7 seal. I had to go dumpster diving to retrieve the old seal to be sure I was correct. I have already installed the new sealed bearing on the PDS and as soon as I get the correct forward seal I will complete the installation of the PDS. I am sure that all will heave a sight of relief when this post is done.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is true when this Flywheel Cover is being used.
You'll also notice that this 35X52X7 seal installs from AFT, whereas the year correct Flywheel Cover FWD seal installs from FWD, and must be glued into position.

Also, the bearing itself must be a "Sealed" bearing (6206 w/ an extension # on it), as there is NO grease porting for any future grease.
DO NOT use a #6206 here! This must be a "sealed" bearing, or it will fail shortly as it spins off the grease!

But there's more to this, and it's not good news!

The RED FLAG that I was mentioning is there.

Here you show the Stbd side exhaust relief port typically found on both the V-8 and 4 cylinder transom shields.
The Rubber Hook is missing, perhaps the port has been blocked off as is with some of the OHC 4's.



Here you show the Port side, and there is NO relief port that is required for the "double relief" Y-pipe that is being used.
Hence the RED FLAG that I was concerned with.

Someone has installed a 4 cylinder transom shield for your V-8 application.
These two DO NOT belong together! (this Y-pipe and this transom shield)

There is NO Port Side exhaust relief when these two are mated together, in fact, the Stbd relief ports will not even align correctly.



Since your transom shield appears to be rather corroded, I'd strongly suggest that you replace this with the correct V-8 double relief transom shield, and correct all of these issues.

Sorry..... probably not what you wanted to hear!

I have one of these shields here that will be going on e-Bay shortly.
Unfortunately, these are becoming rare, and demand a much higher price than any of the 4 cylinder shields do.

You really do not have much choice but to replace this, IMO.

Also, some unsolicited advice..... I'd loose that exhaust bellows flapper, and would install a 290 flapper onto the exhaust outlet of your 280 drive.
The bellows flapper is too restrictive, IMO.
This "retro-fit" is doable, and requires only a minor modification to the aluminum outlet housing, and a slight modification to the actual rubber flapper.
Not that difficult to do!


Sorry to see that you are in this mess, but all is fixable!

Edit:
Side note..... make darn sure that your crankshaft has the pilot nose bushing installed in it.
Any of the single bearing PDS's must have a "centering" bearing/bushing installed in the crankshaft.
The Borg Warner drive coupler will NOT support any "Centering" forces!
(this is NOT required for any double bearing PDS.)

.

Rick,
Thanks for all of the information. Back in the day (1993) when we repowered this boat the shop that did the job had to have several discussions with the tech support team at VP. They recommended a new exhaust Y pipe be installed. As you indicated the new Y pipe did not match the transom shield. I do not remember all of the problems but I do recall that there was at least one port on the new exhaust Y pipe that had to be welded shut. I really do appreciate all of your good advice regarding the transom shield and exhaust pipe but budget restraints and the fact that the boat is 35 years old, and I am more than twice its age and have been running the boat for over 17 years in its present condition leads me to the decision of leaving well enough alone.

Now for the good news, the PDS is now reinstalled! I used a new SKF sealed bearing and replaced both seal even though there is no grease to retain. The snap rings go in a lot easier than they come out!!! I will also recommend that any one doing this job go out and buy a short length of 2" PVC pipe which is just the correct diameter to fit the outer race of the new bearing.

I also checked the crankshaft for the pilot bushing and am happy to report that it is there and seems to be in good condition.

As to the exhaust flapper on the exhaust bellows, I already have the flappers installed on the exhaust outlet of the drive itself and will be replacing both the exhaust bellows and the drive bellows and the exhaust bellows will be straight through.

Last but not least. Ted thanks for your good wishes. I had to go through all of the pictures in this post to find the "Scoop Away" bucket you referred to. They do come in handy.

Again, thanks to everyone especially Rick for all of the help, encouragement and good wishes. I never expected this post to grow as large as it has but with my hybrid setup and Rick's knowledge there was much to discuss and I hope this posting will become the "How do I replace my PDS bearings" go to posting.

I fully understand your reasoning, and will not question it!
It's certainly not what I'd do, but this is your boat!

As for the tech support team at VP, if they did indeed make a recommendation that the Y-pipe relief port be welded shut, and used on this 4 cylinder transom shield while "Mis-Matching" the Stdb relief port......., shame on them!
This would only partially relieve 4 cylinders on the Stbd side only, and would NOT relieve the 4 cylinders on the Port side.
That is un-excuseable, IMO.


Almost every single relief 4 cylinder transom shield, (at the area where we'd see a relief port if for V-8), offers a surface that is NOT on the same plane.
If it were on the same plane, an additional port could be machined into this, and the Stdb port could be relocated.
I know this because of the idea of modifying a 4 cylinder shield to work with the V-8 Y-pipe has crossed my mind before.
There are only a few, very rare, 4 cylinder shields that offer a "same-plane" surface in this area.
I happen to own one, but it would not be cost effective to modify one.

However, with the correct V-8 shield now days having a retail price of $3,100 +..... it may become an option for some people.

.