Carburated Crusader 350 Electronic Ignition Suggestions

We run a 30 foot Pacemaker with twin 350 carburated crusaders. We are looking to upgrade to electronic ignition and looking for suggestions for upgrading including replacing the distributers, coils, and wires. Thanks in advance for your help!


Mark
Never Miss
St. Joseph, Michigan

If you don't mind steering clear of the EST type systems, it's pretty hard to beat Mallory's YLM series that uses VR technology, IMO.
This is a tried and proven system, very low failure rate, no Photo Eye, no Hall Effect.
This is not an HEI system, but it's doubtful that you require this.

This for you, would be a YLM 624 AV and BV.
That is the one that I not only prefer, but have had continued success with.

There is an e-Bay seller who is offering the AV for $170. He may have some BV's also.
His e-Bay seller name is Chimptoast.
They are listed as "reconditioned", but I've seen and purchased several, and they appear to be brand new.... possibly a recall by Mallory, with the correct fix having been done, or perhaps even over-stock.... I don't know. They have all been un-used.

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..." no Photo Eye, no Hall Effect."

If so, then what triggers it?

Jeff

fastjeff said:

..." no Photo Eye, no Hall Effect."
If so, then what triggers it?
jeff

Click to expand...

Yes, VR..... variable reluctor, as Chris says.

Jeff, the 4, 6 or 8 cylinder reluctor would be the steel, 4, 6 or 8 pointed magnetic star wheel unit. The principle is similar to Hall Effect, in that the star wheel tips pass within close proximity of the sensor/triggering unit! VR typically incorporates a more precisionly manufactured star wheel trigger mechanism, regarding indexing.
This would be the same VR principle that Chrysler used for decades. Mallory has also used it in their YLM units for years. With Mallory's YLM...... the M = Magnetic! (YLU..... the U = photo eye)


The photo eye rotor wheel is certainly accurate, and I believe as a result of the wheel diameter being larger. And I certainly can't argue the prinicple of breaking a light beam for triggering. However, these do occasionally fail! (I've replaced more photo eye units, than I have reluctors.)
As Karl Malen says; "Don't leave home without it!" (a spare photo eye triggering unit, that is!)


I have no issues with Hall Effect when used on a larger circumference or diameter...., such as a flywheel or a crankshaft wheel of some sort. But those small diameter, cast plastic units......, and particularly the retro-fit conversion units........... I'm just not on board with the idea.
Add to this, that the Hall Effects kits (Pertronix, for example) are often installed in potentially worn and in need of an over-haul, distributors.
Sure, we end up with electronic triggering, but what have we done to improve the other aspects of the distributor? (bushings/advance unit, etc)
But that is another story, and for another day!

All work fairly well, and there is always an arguement to be had "for/against" any system......, but if given a choice, I prefer VR for the above reasons.
Old habits and personal preference, I suppose!

Hummm...And all along I thought VRs WERE Hall Effect sensors. What do they use to trigger?

Jeff

Jeff, both use magnetic sensing.

Here is a reluctor wheel and pick up unit.
(not sure why the drill bit is in the photo)


And here are several views of an inductive sensor and reluctor wheel.

Dwell is controlled by the gap between the two.........

...... or in other styles, the separation of sensors, and/or duration of index alignment.


You'll find the reluctor sensing principle used in many applications.


Here is the cheezy little magnet embedded plastic Hall Effect unit found in the Pertronix system.


And of course the photo eye is completely different.

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Wow! Nice work, Rick.


Jeff

Thanks, Jeff. Google Images is excellent! (it makes an otherwise dummy, look somewhat brilliant!)

That may help those who don't quite understand my usual de-bunking of the Pertronix Hall Effect units.
They do work..... just not as precisionally as the other systems do.
Plus, in kit/retro-fit form, they do absolutely ZERO for any correction to a would-be worn or malfunctioning mechanical advancing unit, and/or a worn distributor shaft/bushings, etc.

.

The use of VR sensors has been common in the auto industry for ABS components for decades - cheap and functional.

Rick - is it Pertronix specific implementation or do you feel all Hall effect sensors fucntion less "precisionally"?

makomark said:

1. The use of VR sensors has been common in the auto industry for ABS components for decades - cheap and functional.
2. Rick - is it Pertronix specific implementation or do you feel all Hall effect sensors fucntion less "precisionally"?

Click to expand...

1. Yes, the Chrysler Motor Co has used this successfully for years. I often refer to VR as being "tried and proven"..... and it has been.
2. Mark, that's a very fair question. I have no issues with Hall Effect when used in larger diameter or circumferrence applications. But look at how small the diameter of the plastic unit is. A small fraction of error here, is amplified. A small fraction of error at the circumferance of a larger circle, is not as amplified. Now add to this the lessor quality of the component itself. These are tiny magnets that have been cast into a small diameter plastic housing.

Using a little sarcasm here....... which do we think has been more precisionally manufactured?
The all metal, fully machined reluctor wheel, or a plastic cast component?
Actually, the photo eye wheel system is probably the most accurate, due to yet an even larger diameter. But that's a different topic!

I could be entirely wrong, Mark......, but I have a difficult time bringing myself to use this system. However, I am pretty much forced to use it on the Volvo Penta OHC 4's. There is nothing else available for this engine that I am aware of.

T'were it me, I'd ditch the distributors. There's a MSD marine unit that employs a flying magnet pickup on a flywheel mounted wheel. This will trigger your MSD unit, which is a wasted spark type and then you can use later GM coil packs. Assuming that you want a rock solid no hassle thing that you install once and forget forever. With a diz you eventually have to replace the cap and rotor, and who wants to have to fool with that ever again? The later model gen 3 vortec engines have the ignition magnets already on the flywheel, but I don't think a late flywheel will fit your engine. You'd want to get either the small block kit or the universal kit from MSD. There are other brands out there but MSD has been doing it the longest.
I was working toward this kind of ignition when I found out the GM 350 engine was no good, which forced me to use one of my Fords, but that's another story.

You just have to get one of those spiffy billet distributor hole block offs from Jeg's or Summit. The end.

Here is a reluctor wheel and pick up unit.
(not sure why the drill bit is in the photo)

Click to expand...

Looks like someone either made a boo boo or is otherwise trying to remove the reluctor, which is pressed on, by drilling and cracking, the douche.

o2batsea said:

T'were it me, I'd ditch the distributors. There's a MSD marine unit
View attachment 1857
that employs a flying magnet pickup on a flywheel mounted wheel

View attachment 1856.
This will trigger your MSD unit, which is a wasted spark type and then you can use later GM coil packs

View attachment 1855.
Assuming that you want a rock solid no hassle thing that you install once and forget forever.................. The end.

Click to expand...

I certainly understand the Magnetic Wheel and Pick-up. Keep in mind, that a flywheel triggering system is permanently indexed to the crankshaft.... much like an EST ignition distributor! In order to provide spark lead, it must have an advancing unit, and likely uses an EST system, of one sort or another.

With today's common use of the full dished piston, we add knock sensors that communicate with the module, in order to help combate detonation potenetial. If you are good with that, then there ya go!

However, I don't build or recommend anything but a q/e build SBC or SBF marine engine. This allows for much better detonation control, right within the combustion chamber where it better serves us. So my need for an EST is minimal to non-existant. The Reluctor Wheel style (Mallory), or the Hall Effect style (Pertronix), when used in an advancing type distributor, do not require an EST module, and this suits me just fine.

Merc's TB EST, or one of the others, occasionally have photo eye and/or module issues. This is why I suggested earlier...... "don't leave home without it!" (spare module or photo eye unit).


There are arguments for either side of this. All have their weak areas and their strong areas. This is simply a preference of mine.

Agreed, my suggestion requires more front end set up. However, the detonation issue is moot after some small amount of post install tweaking. Marine engines presumably run at a fixed altitude and under a very predictable load. With a combination of the proper carb jetting and the ignition timing there shouldn't be much in the order of pre-ignition. The nicest aspect is that there are no wear items to replace like caps and rotors or dizzys.
I don't know that I would go to the trouble of installing such a set up now that the engine is in the boat. Maybe my next project will have it. For the most practical, least headache inducing swap, Rick's idea to put the Mallory in the hole is the best.

Your Avitar cracks me up everytime I see it!

o2batsea said:

1. Agreed, my suggestion requires more front end set up.
2. However, the detonation issue is moot after some small amount of post install tweaking. Marine engines presumably run at a fixed altitude and under a very predictable load. With a combination of the proper carb jetting and the ignition timing there shouldn't be much in the order of pre-ignition.
3. The nicest aspect is that there are no wear items to replace like caps and rotors or dizzys.
4. For the most practical, least headache inducing swap, Rick's idea to put the Mallory in the hole is the best.

Click to expand...

1. I'll bet! I have not set one up before.
2. Detonation is not to be confused with "Pre-Ignition". These are two entirely different phenomenon. In the typical so called SBC Marine Build, the full dished piston will often be found. This is the absolute worst piston choice for this engine, in that it creates a near perfect recipe for Detonation. And this is where Ignition Timing and Advance come into play. So we have an Apples/Oranges comparison on this, IMO.
3. Oh I absolutely agree with you regarding fewer wear parts, etc! Definitely a plus in that regard.
4. Glad to see like support for this idea. Simple/easy/low maintenance/cost effective!

#2 above is why I'm so Hell Bent on using a quench effect build for the SBC Marine Engine.
That dog gone full dish piston is hard for me to even look at!

.

The MSD units have their benefits but cost isn't one of them. You'll have a lot more money tied up with it than going the distributor route. You'll also find that any parts needed won't be stocked in most auto or marine outlets, maybe a hot rod shop.

And retrofitting them onto an inboard installation (in the hull) is a major PITA...doing it with the engine out is so much easier.

Thanks for all the great advice. We will be going with the Mallory distributers as that is what is in there now, except they are completely mechanical. I will let you know how they work out!

Well, for the future, wasted spark is the way to go as virtually all engines are made that way now.

Turns out the #1 cylinder also had a bad valve. Valve job on the port side, up graded ignitions, she's purring like a kitten. Thanks again for all the help.