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Engine rotation for CC 1982 350 QL & 350Q

Thetumbleweed

New member
I have a 1982 350 Catalina with twin 350's. The port engine is a 350QL and has L.H. Rotation and the starboard engine is the 350Q and I am assuming that it has R.H. Rotation. Am I correct in my assumption??
 
Yes, typically the Port engine will be a Std LH rotation (same as car/truck engine), and the Stbd engine will be a reverse RH rotation.
These are always viewed as if looking at the flywheel end.
LH = counter-clockwise..... RH = clockwise.

What are your issues, if any?
 
Rick,

From what I have read and my small amount of knoledge about engines you should look at the engine from the front and typically the flywheel is in the rear. My engines are mounted with flywheel forward so looking from the stern forward my port engine has CCW rotation. My starboard engine won't run so I am not sure of the rotation but since the port engine is a 350QL with CCW rotation I am thinking that the starboard being a 350Q that it would have CW rotation, seams logical but engineers aren't always logical. What I do know is that a CCW rotating starter, which is what you need in a CW engine is very hard to come by untill yesterday. I stopped by my parts store and a young man (in his 20's) took one look at my starter and knew that it came from a small block Chevy motor. A few key strokes on his keyboard and he came up with a starter for under $40, I couldn't believe it, I have paid as high as $360 for that starter. The starter comes out of a 1990 IROC Z Camero and it was on the shelf with the straight across bolt pattern upward mount. Hope this tidbit helps someone with a CW Chevy small block in need of a starter.

Thetumbleweed
 
Rick,
  1. From what I have read and my small amount of knoledge about engines you should look at the engine from the front and typically the flywheel is in the rear.
  2. My engines are mounted with flywheel forward so looking from the stern forward my port engine has CCW rotation. ..................
  3. What I do know is that a CCW rotating starter, which is what you need in a CW engine is very hard to come by untill yesterday.
  4. I stopped by my parts store and a young man (in his 20's) took one look at my starter and knew that it came from a small block Chevy motor. A few key strokes on his keyboard and he came up with a starter for under $40, I couldn't believe it, I have paid as high as $360 for that starter.
  5. The starter comes out of a 1990 IROC Z Camero and it was on the shelf with the straight across bolt pattern upward mount.
Thetumbleweed

  1. Like said..... to determine the rotation of an engine, we view as though looking at the flywheel end. I think that you are getting bad information for marine use.
  2. Sound like V-drives! We still consider rotation as if viewing the engine from the flywheel end.
  3. Very common starter motor when you look for one from a Marine Parts Supplier.
  4. A $40 starter motor is very likely non-marine approved! Also likely that it's not a HTGR/PMGR motor. Treat yourself to a HTGR/PMGR next time. :)
  5. Yep, there are some AQ series Volvo Penta applications whereby we use the 153 tooth flywheel from the Camero, which uses the straight across bolt pattern starter.
With V-drives, I'd think that your starter motors would be flywheel cover mounted.... not engine block mounted. Just curious!

Good luck with the project.
.
 
Rick,

Like I said, you look at an engine from the front!!! The flywheel end is the rear of the engine!!! With flywheel forward these engines are direct drive, 1982, later they built transmissions that didn't care which rotation the engine had, they would work in either mode. I'm not just spouting off steam here I am stating facts that my research has uncovered. These are the facts, port engine 350QL LH rotation, starter motor for this engine is a Prestolite RH rotation MHA-7013, starboard engine 350Q RH rotation, starter motor for this engine is a Prestolite LH rotation MHA-7012. With flywheel forward where did you get the idea of a V-drive?? and I never mentioned anything about a Volvo Penta application. You are right about the Camero starter not being marine approved but let's use a little logic here. A 1990 Camero has higher compression than a 1982 CC 350 so it would stand to reason that even though not marine approved it would supply the necessary touque to start the engine and I don't plan on soaking my engine compartment with sea water, it works and I saved $320. If you accumulate 1000 hours on your motor which you started for 10 seconds every 30 minutes you will only have accumulated less than six hours on your starter, if that don't work for you then you have more money than sense. I joined this site to interact with like minded people that where looking for answers to questions that marine mechanics and web sites want to charge you for, not to fuss with people. You will only see me post a question that I am not sure of the answer and only answer a question that I completely understand and have documented evidence that the answer I am giving is correct.

Respectively,
Thetumbleweed

P.S. I have documentation of the facts I stated above.
 
Whoah.... I came to your thread to help you by offering my years of experience .... that's what we do here.... we help each other, and we do so politely. Yet this is how you respond?????
And you close with the word "Respectively"?????? Hmmmm :confused:

Not sure how else to put this, regarding your so called "facts", but you have found, or have been given, some misinformation regarding how to determine marine engine rotation.

Rick,
From what I have read and my small amount of knoledge about engines you should look at the engine from the front and typically the flywheel is in the rear. Thetumbleweed
The key word "Engine" must be used in your search, or you will find search results for "Motors" (I.E. Electric, Hydraulic, Pneumatic, etc.)
We want "Engines"..... not Motors!
These are examples of what you will find.

This is from ProPowerMarine.com

(Note which end of the engine is being shown.)

This is a Standard LH Rotation Marine Engine.
faq-ro5.jpg


This is a Non-Standard RH Rotation Marine Engine..... aka Counter Rotation.... aka CW.
faq-ro6.jpg

Source


Here's one from an automotive site.

Q: Do you determine engine rotation by facing the engine from the front or by standing behind it?
A: Engine rotation is determined by sitting in the driver's seat.
Source


Here is one from Sterndrives.com site

ALL sterndrive Mercruiser Engines are left hand (standard, counterclockwise) rotation.
A note about ROTATION
Do not confuse engine rotation with sterndrive or propeller rotation
Source


Here is another from Sterndrives.com

You must know the rotation of your engine before ordering a starter.
Rotation is determined by looking at the engine from the FLYWHEEL end (not the pulley end).
So, if you are standing in front of the engine and looking at the belts and pulleys turning,
and they are turning right hand, you have a left hand (LH) Engine.
All "sterndrive" engines are standard left hand rotation engines (counter-clockwise).
Only inboard engines might be right hand (RH) rotation.
Source


Here is another from MarineEngineParts.com

Engine rotation is viewed from the flywheel of the engine, counter clockwise would be left hand, & clockwise would be right hand.
(MEP.com uses the same images as posted above)
Source

You are correct. I did make an assumption that with the engines installed with flywheel end facing the FWD, that these may be V-Drives. Perhaps these are driven from the front of crankshaft. If so, My mistake! This is very old school technology!
None-the-less, this changes nothing to the determination of LH -vs- RH rotation Engines.
In your case, and if no reversing gears are used.... (direct drive)...., your Port engine is the Reverse Rotation Engine in order to swing a LH propeller.
If a Standard LH rotation engine were to be installed on your Port side, your propeller would swing RH.

You are correct again re; Volvo Penta..... I'm the one who mentioned Volvo Penta and for a reason that pertained to the Camero Flywheel and Starter Motor bolt pattern! Apparently you missed this..... perhaps your focus was De-Bunking this LH/RH thing.

You have absolutely missed the issue re; the automotive starter motor! Again....., perhaps you were busy placing more focus or importance on longevity.... rather than the CG Requirements.
Your call on that..... I hope that you are never boarded for a very thorough Coast Guard Engine/Electrical inspection.

As for your comment re; joining this forum for interaction with "Like Minded People"...... to your dismay, I'm somewhat doubtful that anyone will be along soon! Lots of sharp thinkers here!


I'll close with this!
Thetumbleweed said:
You will only see me post a question that I am not sure of the answer and only answer a question that I completely understand and have documented evidence that the answer I am giving is correct.
Hmmmmm :confused:
 
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Rick,

engine rotation 001.jpg As you can see from this image from my Chris Craft parts list if I were to view these engines from the flywheel end they would be rotating in the opposite direction from what the literature is saying. These are the engines that my question was directed too not car engines, Volvo Penta's or any other type of engine other than a Thermocon Marine Engine by Chris Craft.

Again Respectfully,
Thetumbleweed
 
Can we continue as though we are long term friends, sitting down at a table at one of our favorite pubs, consuming a grown-up beverage, while wrapping our lips around a huge pile of delicious Nachos? Let's try that! OK? :D

Don't assume anything. I did a repower on a Silverton this past summer the PORT ENGINE WAS REVERSE ROTATING!
I fully understand that. However, would you agree that this has little to do with the actual "hand" or "determined rotation" of the engine?
It would appear that the "installation" is what's different, and somewhat unique in terms of Industry Standard.
Would you also agree with what I've posted (the 5 sources) as to determining engine rotation as per industry standard? No Flaming..... just curious!

*************************************

Thetumbleweed, that information is incorrect for umteen% of the entire industry. The industry views engine rotation as though from the flywheel end. I've given you five (5) sources to read!
What you are showing is perhaps very unique to ChrisCraft, and may have more to do with the front crankshaft drive, and of the method that these engine are installed in the hull.

Side note: In the door industry, there is a industry method for determining the "hand" of a given door. With hinges concealed from view on your RIGHT and the door swinging away from you, it is a RIGHT HAND. With hinges visible and on your RIGHT and the door swinging toward you, it is a RIGHT HAND REVERSE. Point being (and a bit of a stretch here) it is very likely that ChrisCraft has taken it upon themselves to create their own unique method for their own unique installation. Perhaps had you made this a key point in your querry, we'd not be having this portion of the conversation. I don't know for sure.

*****************************************

The firing order would also appear to be unique for ChrisCraft.
Normal SBC firing order is this.... auto, marine... doesn't matter!
Standard LH rotation:
images
images

A reverse RH rotation engine firing order, would be the exact oposite, beginning from #1 (distributor rotation remains the same).
In order to deviate from this, the camshaft design and indexing, would be considerably different from that of OEM GM.
Since "firing order" and "camshaft indexing" must go hand in hand, there would be no alternative!
There is either a blatant error in that ChrisCraft data sheet......, or ChrisCraft may have done something very unique in this area!


Here is another showing the GM standard automotive firing order (top right)..... of which would be for a standard LH engine (there is NO RH engine used in automotive).
Note that there is an alternate firing order (lower right).... but again, in the auto world, this would be standard LH rotation.
This is same as what ChrisCraft is showing for their "Counter-Clockwise" Rotation engine.... of which as per industry standard, is actually a LH like the alternate automotive firing order displays.
Again, the use of the lower right hand firing order would dictate an entirely different camshaft indexing.
9605d1252639944-cleveland-windsor-firing-order-firing-order.jpg


I'm just pointing out that ChrisCraft's methods may deviate from industry standard.

****************************************

All too often we come to a forum with a pre-conceived notion, idea or agenda to seek only that information that supports our original thoughts, when in fact, we are actually closed minded to learning of other possibilities. I do not see how this serves us!

You may very well be correct as to how your engines are handed as per the ChrisCraft installation. You should also be open to the idea that most of the industry does not determine the LH/RH roation, as per what you are suggesting. Again, ChrisCraft, during these years and with this particular installation, may be unique in this regard.

Question: while this appears to have the ChrisCaft logo at the bottom, is this information by chance from a Seloc or Clymers work shop manual? We/I have see many errors in these manuals over the years. Just a thought!


Please pass the Nachos! :D

.
 
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Rick,

I believe I have come across with a solution to the controversey about engine rotation. If we change our verbage to "look at the engine from the transmission end" it wouldn't matter if the flywheel was forward or rear we would come up with the right rotation for that motor.
What do you think?

Respectfully,
Thetumbleweed
 
Wow let's play nice well here's my 2 cents iv got a 76 chriscraft with 307 chev small blocks pulled the port engine out and fould out that thay turned the engine arould for some reason id like to know why thay did that?? One hek of a lot of work to do so and a real pain to work on when you not use to it becouse as you do your work like puting in pistons ext you have to keep thinking it back words from what most of us are use to and for me realy confusing cus I'm also working on engines that are installed the reg way also the parigon trans can change rotashion Lh/rh so iv been told at the shop. And chriscraft did not turn the 427 s arould like the small blocks? ?? But thay still use the same cooling system would you know why thay did this rick. Also I think that other guy is the one that in another q a said that fram oil filters have psi valves in them ??? This is why I do my own work thanks.
 
Rick,

Nachos and beer sound good. I was just pointing out that all the reading and diagrams are a great thing for reference, but, nothing will substitute actually physically looking. If the engine is locked up, pull the starter and look at the gear or pull the water pump remove the bolts on the timing cover and pry it away a little to take a look inside.

Chris..aka Dockside Marine Services
Bayville, New Jersey
 
Can't pull the timeing cover with the trans one chriscraft engines are backwards and have gear driven cam at lest mine does but what would we be looking for?? Also I fould out don't go buy the fireing order on the dist cap if you think it may be a Rh engine I find a lot of reg caps one Rh engines that are numberd for Lh engines not the same fireing order maybe thay only make one cap don't know on that one maybe you know why did chrisCraft put the small blocks in back wards??
 
Rick,
I believe I have come across with a solution to the controversey about engine rotation. If we change our verbage to "look at the engine from the transmission end" it wouldn't matter if the flywheel was forward or rear we would come up with the right rotation for that motor.
What do you think?
Respectfully,
Thetumbleweed
And respectfully back to you! (don't have a first name for you)

First; My point all along has been regarding the correct engine rotation determination as per Industry Standard....... Not necessarily what ChrisCraft has to say.
Secondly; That is a somewhat fair question, but I can't do what you are asking, yet remain true to my many years of understanding this correctly.
Again.... rotation is viewed as though looking at the flywheel end of an engine.
I have given you 5 sources that very nicely explain engine rotation determination, including images. I could give you another 5! :D

You may not be understanding that ChrisCraft is using unique terminology.... if that's the case! (not sure if YOU are having an issue, or if CC's information is causing this confusion)

This rather unique installation (and CC is not the only one who has driven from the front of crankshaft) is using a RH engine in a Port Side scenario.
This RH engine rotation (installed as your engines are) is necessary in order to swing a LH propeller on a typical Port Side of a twin engine boat. No question about it, unless the transmission is "FWD gear reverse" capable.
My guess would be Borg Warners?????

In most other installations, (including some fwd gear reverse-able V-drives) we would find a LH engine being used in a Port Side scenario.... RH (reverse rotation) being used on Stbd side.
These engines sit with Flywheel end facing FWD..... just as yours do, but angled differently, and with transmissions mounted to the flywheel end.
All you need to do is come to terms with that. Nothing more.
IOW, understand that ChrisCraft's terminology may be unique in this regard.

**************************
Thetumbleweed, if you were to read this old thread, you may find some additional firing order information. A few posts offer some inaccuracies....... and mind you, some photos show a different type of installation from yours.
Engine Circ pumps can be reverse capable. Many SBC Marine Circ pumps are!
Oil pump directioin is same as GM OEM...... due to this, distributors rotate CW... only the driven gear and a thrust bearing, being the difference!
One image of a Flywheel FWD installation (that would be nice to see), has been deleted (this is an old thread).

***************************

Bottom line: If your Port engine is "direct driving" a transmission (no reversing of rotation via transmission for FWD), then you indeed have a RH engine on this side of your boat.
If you were to order re-build parts for this engine (non OEM CC) and were to use industry standard LH rotation parts, you will have trouble.
If you need parts, you'd best order them through CC.


Chris and Thetumbleweed..... It's morning where I am, I think we need to have coffee, eggs, bacon and hash browns.
 
Rick, ............. I was just pointing out that all the reading and diagrams are a great thing for reference, but, nothing will substitute actually physically looking. If the engine is locked up, pull the starter and look at the gear or.......................
Chris.. aka Dockside Marine Services
Bayville, New Jersey
Ditto, Chris! Wear pattern, on one side of the gear teeth, will certainly determine which direction the starter motor has been engaging and drving from!
 
Chris, I have to pose this as a both a question and comment, and preface it with; "I don't know about ChrisCraft" and/or what they were doing in 1982.
That being said...... there are several methods used for cam drving a RH Reverse Rotation SBC.
Gear driven being one method, chain being another.
Each is capable of working in a RH Reverse Rotation SBC, but as you know, each requires a different camshaft.
The gear driven cam requires no difference to the distributor gear..... the chain driven requires a different distributor gear, since both operate the distributor in the same CW direction..... (oil pump rotation).

Add to this, the special ChrisCraft front engine housing, and I believe you are correct re; gear drive.

Thetumbleweed, just a friendly fyi; none of this RH/LH stuff is to prove who's right, who's wrong. It's not about that.
It's about forum info, and correct info.
This very thread can be easily found doing a Google search.
There may be others viewing, looking for info, yet not posting.
Let's give them good info! :D

.
 
First: I did not ask about industry standard rotation!
Second: I asked specifically about a 1982 Chris Craft 350 Catalina with flywheel forward installation.
Third: I think you are a bunch of pompus asses that are spewing of bunch of crap that you have read rather than done.

Disresecptfully,
Thetumbleweed and that is my first name!
 
Ouch! I take that to include Chris, Glen, and myself ?????

I did not capitalize on this earlier.... but am now;
The starter comes out of a 1990 IROC Z Camero and it was on the shelf with the straight across bolt pattern upward mount. Hope this tidbit helps someone with a CW Chevy small block in need of a starter.
An automotive Camero Starter Motor will not work on a CW (RH) rotation SBC. Camero engines would have been CCW (LH) rotation.
***************************

As I suspected, your original agenda has driven you. You actually received your "like" support by post #2. Shame on ME..... I should have quit right then and there.

Suggestion:
Next time you come to a forum, you may want to begin with; "Looking for "like" support only, to substantiate my original thoughts! Not open to other ideas!"

I wish you the best! :)
 
Ok well thank you rick and others don't get down I like the infow and as I look at my engine all apart on the back deck of my boat about the last think except gas maybe I'm thinking is a starter and its a bolt on and I have the sarborded engine to go thew oh and I have enother boat a large wood one I'm also at the same time rebuilding / fixing I myself can use all the infow I can get to put two and two together with out asking / paying a shop wich I realy can't. Aford or I would not mess with it plus I do like doing it I love engins and boats I'm a machinist and iv messed with engines almost all my life and I'm sure I don't know the half of it. Yet so thank you all for the help ok I'm not to shur about the dist turning the same way becouse you would have to put them on the other side of the cam gear I also think I have a cc pic of them turning different directions as for oil pumps / gear pumps a lot mos that I see hear at work can turn ether dir and work the same ok my next q is I also em working on a pair of ford 427 Fe s one Lh and one Rh instaled normaly flywheel on trans end on the Rh is thare realy a Rh water pump I can not find a listing on one. Thay look the same got one off and the vains inside are stright would it not work runing both ways? ?? Thanks.
 
Glen, I'm not certain if you have a question here or not.
I will make a comment on the SBC ignition distributor rotation, though.
To the best of my knowledge, the SBC engine oil pump rotates one direction only..... looking down, that would be CW.
Because of this, the distributors must also rotate in this same direction (RH or LH engines).
Some RH engine camshafts do rotate same as crankshaft...... however, the distributor correction is made with a differently designed helical cut to both the "drive gear" (on the cam) and the "driven gear" (of the distributor).
Again...... engine oil pump direction remains same.
However, this does place a "down-thrust" load on the RH rotation engine distributor.... This distributor requires down-thrust load accommodations. Mallory XXX-YYY-BV for example.
This applies, unless the camshaft is being gear driven.
If the camshaft is being gear driven (2 gears only), the cam rotates Std LH rotation (but of course the crankshaft is RH).
Std distributor can be used.

So, there is quite a bit more to this, than just building a RH engine.
This thread is a possible example of that, with some of CC's unique interpretations.

.
 
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Ok thanks rick soulds good I'll have to look at it better was trying to figure out how to look at a dist and tell like by the gear if it was Rh or Lh you see some. Of the engine was taken apart when I bought it and iv also have got more parts from friends ect for both of the boats so I can just rebuild the dist from ether engine and I sbould be ok then did you see my Q about the 427 water pump eny info would be nice.
 
Glen, this is very simple to determine.
Here is a Mallory YLM 624 AV. Mallory recommends this for a Std LH Rotation engine.... same as car/truck, with exception to curve/limit and no vacuum advance..... chain drive cam..... or two gear/two idler gear set... four gears total.
Note the gear cut.
images


Here is a Mallory YLM 624 BV for use in a RH rotation engine... chain drive cam.
Note the gear cut.
YLM624BV.jpg


Either one is CW rotation due to the oil pump.

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L stands for left hand rotation

thats why i said it sounds right

im not a fan of PCM and chris-crap motors, also HONDA and SUZUKI

i got off this thread because we had 10 things going at once, LOL
 
Hay justin I'm realy not a cc lover nether but thay are / seam to be well built until haveing one iv never seen someone take a 120 lbs small block and make it a 1000 plus lbs and put out the same Hp but what do I know right. Makes me love my other boat a littel more with the ford Fe 427 S STILL working on on both eney help is better than no help keep it comeing.
 
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