Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson 200 HP

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

As you will recall, mine was acting just like yours. Hard to start, then started and ran fine the rest of the day. Pulled plugs and checked. When hard to start only had fire on #1 cylinder. Swapped powerpacks, same trouble. Ran CDI's ohm test on the timer base, way off. Compared to junk-box timer base, pretty close to their numbers. Pulled flywheel, noticed that one of the magnets had slipped. Also noticed that the stator was dripping black ooze from one of the rear coils. Replaced timer base, and put original stator and flywheel back. Then had fire on all 6 cylinders. Went back and replaced the stator due to advice of J. Reeves, and installed a spare flywheel with correct magnets. Engine runs fine. I'll bet your problem is the timer base too.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nick... The inner portion of the starter that turns is the armature. The bottom portion of the armature that the four brushes ride upon is the commutator. The stub shaft that is mentioned, I would assume is the short portion of the armature bearing shaft beneath the commutator.

The starter overheat thing..... it states in the manual somewhere, in not so many words, that it is recommended that the electric starter be allowed to cool down after being in use for 20 seconds. This is to avoid overheating which could melt the solder that connects the windings to the commutator. Not an everyday occurrance but it does happen from time to time.

I may have lost track of what's happening here but I assume that the stator was faulty and replaced but you still have no spark. If so, and if you might have overlooked Daselbee's suggestion about disconnecting the RED electrical plug (I saw no mention of doing that).....

Disconnecting that RED plug eliminates the kill Circuit resulting in the ignition system being fully active.

Remove the spark plugs, then disconnect the large RED electrical plug at the engine. Rig a spark tester whereas you can set a 7/16" gap for the spark to jump. Crank the engine by using a small jumper wire from the battery terminal of the solenoid to the small 3/8" nut terminal of the solenoid that energizes the solenoid. If you have spark with that RED plug disconnected BUT not with it connected, the usual problem is a shorted ignition switch.

To test the switch, reconnect that RED electrical plug, then disconnect the black/yellow wire from the ignition switch. Also make sure that the black/yellow wire is disconnected from the kill switch. If you have spark with that wire disconnected BUT no spark with it connected to the ignition switch, replace the ignition switch.

No spark tester? Build the following.

(Spark Tester - Home Made)
(J. Reeves)

A spark tester can be made with a piece of 1x4 or 1x6, drive a few finishing nails through it, then bend the pointed ends at a right angle. You can then adjust the gap by simply twisting the nail(s). Solder a spark plug wire to one which you can connect to the spark plug boots, and a ground wire of some kind to the other to connect to the powerhead somewhere. Use small alligator clips on the other end of the wires to connect to ground and to the spark plug connector that exists inside of the rubber plug boot.
Using the above, one could easily build a spark tester whereas they could connect 2, 4, 6, or 8 cylinders all at one time. The ground nail being straight up, the others being bent, aimed at the ground nail. A typical 4 cylinder tester follows:
　
..........X1..........X2
.................X..(grd)
..........X3..........X4

Thousands of parts in my remaining stock. Not able to list them all. Let me know what you need and I'll look it up for you. Visit my eBay auction at:

http://shop.ebay.com/Joe_OMC32/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

Let us know if you've performed this test and what the results are.

Note: The flywheel nut must be torqued to 145 foot pounds, otherwise the flywheel key will shear which effectively throws the engine out of time.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nick....alot of good advice here on where to start, but I see not indication that you have followed any of the suggestions. Get that cdielectronics troubleshooting procedure I posted and follow it. Please let us know what the results are.

I am still not sure that you have "a lack of spark, that returns after many minutes of cranking".
For example, I do not see where you have put a spark tester on one of the plug wires, and checked for spark AT THE TIME you are thinking there is no spark. Very simple to do. No spark tester, use a timing light, or build the one Joe posted. I also saw one made from an old distributor cap that was very cool.

The reason I question the whole lack of spark diagnosis, is that you will experience the same "no start / hard start" issue if you have an inoperative primer system. That's an easy test too.....pump bulb til hard, turn red lever on primer solenoid to manual, pump primer bulb two more full pumps, turn manual lever back to "run" position, and try start.
Also, you state once you get it started, it is good for the rest of the day. Typical of the primer system failure.

Believe me, I have been there. These things worked for me.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Daselbee and Joe… I have disconnected the red plug from the motor with no luck, and used a remote starting device (a pistol looking thing with two cables one goes to the POS side of the started and the other goes to the small nut in the solenoid) did that the day I installed the new stator…and to test spark I have been using a timing light…Daselbee about the fuel solenoid… I know the solenoid is good as I know for sure that I have fuel as my plugs get wet…when the hard starting problem developed my line of thinking was that I was flooding the motor, but when I started to troubleshoot the problem I found the no spark condition…I will do everything again and double check my installation work on the stator and do the red plug thing again. The only issue doing the CDI testing as per Daselbee is that my Multimeter does not have DVA, only ohms, DCV and ACV, I might have it I just don’t know what sign represents DVA, I’ll post a picture of my multimeter and my old stator.. later today

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nick.... The rubber plug connectors that house the Pin/Socket connectors. They have been known to become pushed back somewhat from each other which results in either a poor or non existent contact which in turn results in weak, erratic, or no ignition. Also the wires connected to those Pins/Sockets have been known to break away resulting in a no contact situation BUT in appearance look perfectly normal.

Unlikely this is your problem as your explanation of once the engine starts, it's good for the rest of the day. However I feel it's worth mentioning.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Joe I know it seems so strange how once the motor starts it will run w/o issues, and the worst part is that if I keep starting the motor every day it will start w/o issues, the problem is when the motor sits for a few days...I had no time to play with the motor today, got off work around 4 PM and took the family to dinner so, I will post more stuff as I get to it, hopefully I'll post the pics of the stator and multimeter tomorrow, next week is going to be short too as Thursday I leave to texas to visit mom...

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Starting every day = no problems. Sits 3 or 5 days or so = problems! After which, start every day again = no problems.

That is quite strange. I assume you do pump the fuel primer bulb up hard and apply some throttle in neutral to open the throttle butterflies somewhat, then hold the key in while cranking to engage the fuel primer solenoid until the engine fires (normal starting procedure)?

Also DO NOT apply pressure to the OIL primer bulb as this will force raw oil into the carburetors resulting in extremely hard starting. (No offense to your intelligence intended).

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

I have all the same issues that nick has on a 89 150XP. He has explained it exactly the way my hard start issue is. I have done all the tests and all the readings are in range. All grounds are good. Ordering a new power pack. " Tap test made spark."

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Still sounds like primer system problems to me. Please just humor me, and do the procedure I outlined above regarding the manual lever and the primer bulb.
Or, if you would rather, you can spray some pre-mix in the carb throats. I bet it pops right over.

My procedure will not work if the primer solenoid valve is clogged, that is why the suggestion to try pre mix spray.

However, as I understand it, you have no spark at all, after changing the stator, right?

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nick.... In re-reading some of your posts above, I see that you mention you're using a timing light to check for spark. I have a problem with that. On a engine that has ignition whereas the actual spark would jump only say a 1/8" 3/16" or 1/4" gap.... that is enough to fire a timing light BUT on the ignition system that has existed since 1973 (Magneto Capacitance Discharge) which is what your engine has, having an actual spark that will jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame (a real SNAP!) is a necessity.

It's best that you test the spark (with the spark plugs removed), with a spark tester whereas you can set the mentioned 7/16" gap. Otherwise, you can, and usually do, obtain a false reading.

From what you've said, it appears that ignition is not your problem BUT this is the only way to eliminate the guess work.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Joe:"That is quite strange. I assume you do pump the fuel primer bulb up hard and apply some throttle in neutral to open the throttle butterflies somewhat, then hold the key in while cranking to engage the fuel primer solenoid until the engine fires (normal starting procedure)?"** YES

Then:"Also DO NOT apply pressure to the OIL primer bulb as this will force raw oil into the carburetors resulting in extremely hard starting. (No offense to your intelligence intended)." pre mix only no VRO
*
Also:On a engine that has ignition whereas the actual spark would jump only say a 1/8" 3/16" or 1/4" gap.... that is enough to fire a timing light BUT on the ignition system that has existed since 1973 (Magneto Capacitance Discharge) which is what your engine has, having an actual spark that will jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame (a real SNAP!) is a necessity. Joe I agree, but the timing light is not flashing...so you are saying that there is the posibility that I have spark, but is not strong enough??? if so that would represent ingnition issues right??? now if you think there is* no ignition issues what could it be???

*
Indy4 car: "" Tap test made spark."*what is the tap test
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Daselbee: yeah no spark at all, and spark plugs are wet that would mean that I do have fuel right???...
*
racer1: tach shows around 300 and 400 while cranking, but I have not got around to teake the started to get it tested..

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Joe/Daselbee when I started with this issue, I was thinking that I was having fuel issues ie. after sitting for days in the trimmed/tailoring position the motor loses prime so my thinking was that the issue was just something that I just had to live with (hard starting until fully primed all six carbs filled and ready to run) but then I found out that there was no spark...what about the timer base??? is there something that gets dirty, or gets rusted and makes bad contact??? preventing the motor from sparking???

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Tap test
Take the handle and tap all around the spark box while trying to start the motor.(Was GM's way of diagnosing MAFS which had solid state boards in them./
See if the motor tries to start.
My motor has spark on one bank but not the other. Will start and run on 3 cylinders after alot of messing with it. Once it was running I tapped all around the spark box, this made it backfire and shut down. Fired back up and kept tapping, could here the other cylinders trying to fire. Once i got to a point were i could bump the idle alittle and kept tapping on the box the other cylinders came in and ran like a champ. Has sat for a week now so im going out to try it again today or tomorrow. I have ordered a new spark box.
Like you said once it fires up its good untill it sets for a peroid of time.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Ok, you are the one with hands on.....we can only chime in from the 'net.
I agree with everything Joe said in his post. In some cases, a timing light will not work.
You need that 10 dollar adjustable spark tester available at almost every parts house I have ever been in.

So, let me make sure...you are now at a NO SPARK at all condition, not the SPARK ONLY AFTER MUCH CRANKING that you started this post with.

Still, the instructions for no spark at all are in the CDI PDF.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Daselbee, the day I installed the stator I tried few thing w/o having the spark returned, but basically I always start with no spark, I do have a spark tester I will try that, but I know there is no spark...I will get right in to the CDI instruction I have tried things, but not followed it 100%, I just notice that I have not tried disconecting the two yellow wires that screw in to the rectifier wires, item #2 in the TS chart.... now could I have put those backwards??, it is my understanding that there is no polarity on those, but does not hurt to ask...

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

No, that's not it...the two yellows...
Check your PMs.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nicknack, are you anywhere near SW Florida? If you are, I'll loan you a powerpack so you can rule that out. If your multimeter has a really low ohm range (mine has a 20 meg range) you can do the ohm test on the timerbase that CDI describes. It nailed mine.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

where in tex are you going. might be close enough to me to bring your boat, we'll ck it out!!!

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Bassmaster: I'm going to Odessa

Thanks martino, I'll let u know, I'm In Arizona...and post a picture of my Multimeter.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

That stator is shot, that's for sure.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...


I Think I just discovered that my multimiter does have DVA, if you enlarge the picture you can see a button on the top left corner that says

peak+- then under Cal>2S

I'm right???

now back to the motor/stator, I did not get to play w/ the motor today, but did took some readings from the old stator, I checked resistance on the stator this is what I got:

orange to striped orange got 97.4

now I'm comfused with the brown wire, the only browns that I see are the ones inside the two cannon plugs, are those the ones that I need to check???

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

checked the brown wires from the two cannon plugs and I got the following #(resistance)

one cannon plug gave 810 and the other 813, IAW CDI I need at least a reading of 900...

I thought you already replaced the stator. If you did, and got the same results, that leaves the timer base (my first guess & what caused this condition on mine) and the powerpack.

Yeah I did replaced the stator, I just ran those test on the old one just to see what the numbres were...

Factory manual on the stator ohm test says you need 970 +/- 100. Don't know how critical those numbers are.

Just to clarify and to avoid any lack of comunication, what exactly are the Ohm Readings between the yellow wires of the NEW stator that lead to the rectifier, and between the Brown wires of the NEW stator that lead to the powerpack?

Note that the wires must be disconnected when taking this reading.

Is this a brand new Bombardier factory stator or a third party stator, and if a third party stator, who is the supplier?

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Your best bet is take the whole starter into a rebuild shop and have it tested. A good shop will have the proper equipment to check it out completly. There's more than just using an ohmeter to check it out.

Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...


You guys are going to love this… and I hope this is the end of this tread...as I was checking and double checking my work with the stator and started to get readings from the power pack and timer base, I notice that while cranking there was no spark (as usual) I had the timing light hooked up (and no light as usual) as you know in order to access the strip and connectors under the p/p you have to remove the power pack or at least unbolt it down and move it to the side, well after I checked everything I crank one more time w/o luck and then saw these two cables just hanging out there, one comes from the neutral safety switch and the other comes from the p/p, yes the p/p's ground and I go like o shut I forgot to hook those up so I hook them up... OMG magic happen and spark immediately appeared and the motor fired right up, this time these two ground wire were hooked up right in to the stud sandwiched between the self contained nut in the stud and the p/p's cover nut, you will see once you see the pictures below, now I will let the motor sit for a few days and see if it fires right up, but my money is in a bad ground as before the two wires were mounted on the outside of the p/p, on the stud and sandwiched between the PLASTIC p/p cover and the nut...I guess vibration would make the wires have continuity to ground and firing the motor, I don’t think that was the correct place to mount those wires from now and on the wires will go under the power pack sandwiched between two nuts to ensure proper ground, but before then I will let this thing seat for at least a week and see what it does...

does that makes any sence???

well, hopefully that was all that was wrong. while cking mine after replacing the timing base I startedmotor & it wouldn't die with key turned off or safety switch disconnected. found where "pro" mech replaced pins in ground wires from pp to harness & didn't remove all of old pins from rubber boot. my ground was & still is on top of pp with flat washer then wire then lock washer then nut. glad i didn't drive from ft. worth to odessa!

On both of my engines those leads are on the top of the powerpak just as you and bassmaster describe. Hope you have yours fixed.