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Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson 200 HP

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nicknack2

Regular Contributor
I have been having issues with the ignition system on my 1991 200 HP Johnson, but only on the first start, can someone explain to me the relationship between the stator, power pack, timer base, rectifier and coils??? to better understand what I'm trying to do/troubleshoot?...It seem like at the beginning I'm not getting spark, but after a while spark magically appears and the motor starts w/o issues...
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Cool and I will, but remember that I have no issues once the motor is running...
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Alternator, timing device, electronic ignition unit, and ignition coils. Alternator consists of stator and magnets which rotate around it. Timing device is timer base and magnetic ring which rotates inside of it. Alternator produces power which goes to rectifier and regulator, and charges the battery. Alternator also produces power to power the ignition system. Forgetting the battery charging circuit, magnets rotate around stator, producing power to the ignition unit (powerpack). Timerbase "tells the powerpack" when to fire by the location of the magnetic ring in relation to the timerbase. Powerpack drives the ignition coils.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Great so in that order, it appears as if my stator is not getting power to the power pack then…is there any test that can be done to the stator when there is an issue of temporary spark???
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

nick, I discovered I had eratic spark on different cylinders on different days, sometimes no spark, sometimes 1 or 2 cyl's. had spark. it drove me bonkers. I bought a cheap( $8.00 ) I think, analog meter. I looked in my factory manual under the heading of power pack testing , stator testing & timing sensor testing. In the man. it tells you how ro ck your voltage from each component, how to ohm each component, & how to ck for grounding of each component. i made a ground with 10 gauge wire & wrapped around each plug,after removing them , & connected it to my engine block, so I could crank my motor to ck volts & grounding without starting motor. The cheap volt meter didn't work very well for voltage, but it worked good enough to ohm out each pin from the stator & timing sensor. It also worked to see if any curcuit was grounding with another curcuit in that component. the fac. man tells you what reading you should have for each test. I had previously replaced pp.,rectifier,stator.plugs, plug wires. Still couldn't get it to run right. Three weeks later I took it to a marine mechanic. He replaced my new pp, stator, rectifier, & plugs & charged me $2500. It still didn't run right. After returning it to him three times & having a fit with yelling & a little cussin', I decided all he knew to do was replace parts until he finally got to the right one that needed replaced. I can do that myself!! After putting my 3 wek old pp back on it, I cked the ohms, & grounding in the stator & timing sensor, finding the numbers didn't coincide with the fac. man. for the timing sensor. I decided to bite the bullet & replaced the timing sensor. (It was the original one from 1991) It started & ran like it used to before all the trouble started. I can't say your problem is the timing sensor but I know you have a manual from previous posts. go to the ignition component testing section & ck. the pins per man. specs. for grounding & ohms. I bet you find the sensor is bad.OEM price is around $400. marineengine cdi price is $300. neighborhood. After replacing timing sensor I did the joe reeves method of setting the static timing, then double cked it at the lake the doug selby way, Everything works great now. Good luck, jeff
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nicknack2------------------------If the starter motor is defective it can not spin the motor fast enuff to make the ignition work.------------------------Check / test the starter.-----------------A very common problem and a very simple solution to it.-----------I see bad / shorter armatures all the time , they still turn over but are junk.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Check the Quick Start system. This system has 2 sets of sensors for the timer, one for starting and warm up, and one set for run. You will need an OEM manual for the correct specs, and testing steps. Control for this is temp sensor , power pack, and power coil on stator. All ignition system can be tested with a DVA and, OHM meter.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nick...I would ask "How goes it?" but I see the answer already...not tooo gooooddddd......

I am very surprised that you are not all over this with your factory manual.

Anyway, first step is to disconnect the big red plug from the boat harness. Next step is remove all plugs, turn engine by jumping the starter solenoid. Check for spark then.
The engine spins much faster with all plugs removed, and it is required to spion 250 to 300 rpms for the pack to even fire. The racerone post above is correct.

The quickstart system is not in the picture for a NO SPARK ON ANY CYLINDER situation.

Follow the instructions here: http://www.cdielectronics.com/downloads/troubleshooting%20guide/OMC%208%20Cylinder%201988-1998%20250-300%20HP%20%28Quick-Start%29.pdf it is all right here.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Hey Daselbee welcome to my new troubles...the engine ran so good for a while that I have forgotten where I put my manual...Hey man motor runs great just a pain in the *ss to get it started, today I will do my testing, what am I doing by disconnecting the red plug???
"I see bad / shorter armatures all the time, they still turn over but are junk"...how can I make sure that my started is good/bad if it does turn???? I will put my battery in the charger and make sure is fully loaded before I start I'll keep you guys posted thru the day... Daselbee old friend/motor battle buddy nice seeing you active in the forum... how is your motor running???...
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Take the starter apart ( they are simple )-------------measure the ohms from the commutator to the little stub shaft at the bottom of the starter ----IT SHOULD BE INFINITY !
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

The above should read -----From commutator to the little stub shaft on the bottom of the armature.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Nick,

Disconnecting the big red plug eliminates the boat wiring harness kill circuits from the picture. The lanyard and the key switch. The engine WILL run with the big red plug disconnected, so the recommendation to remove all plugs does two things: makes it spin faster (spin speed is critical), and keeps it from starting on you.

If you leave the plugs in, and it starts on you with the big red plug disconnected, you cannot shut it down without choking the carbs with a rag, or plugging the red plug back in.

I don't think you have a bad key switch, but this is the recommended procedure. Eliminate the harness first. Follow the CDI instructions I posted.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Do this before you blame the starter. If you have no spark with all the plugs out, it is ignition system (stator, powerpack, etc.) related.
If spark comes back with plugs removed, look for bad, corroded starter to battery connections, including the grounds. Possible bad battery cables. If you find a slow turning starter, do a voltage drop test across all cables before blaming starter.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

People destroy the starters all the time-------------They can not tolerate long periods of cranking by a frustrated owner.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Any updates on yours? I built the DVA adapter as described previously on this site. Won't work at all. Don't know if I did something wrong, or if the person who described how to build it screwed something up. Anyway, I pulled the flywheel to change out the timer base because the ohm readings were out of whack anyway. Here's what I found. One of the flywheel magnets has moved. All the others are secure. I can't imagine that one slid magnet could cause the loss of spark on 5 cylinders until the motor heats up, but I will obviously repair that anyway. I also noticed that one of the stator coils is oozing slightly. I will probably change out the stator too, since I am already in there, and have a spare. But then I will never know if the original problem was the timer base or the stator!
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Two (2) large black coils at the rear portion of the stator provide approximately 300 AC volts to the powerpack in order to energize the ignition. If either of those coils overheats and starts to ooze out a sticky looking substance which drips down on the powerhead area, that results in a voltage drop to the powerpack, which in turn results in weak, erratic, and eventually no ignition. If this condition exists, regardless of whatever readings you may obtain from the stator, replace it.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

I have seen some hardened brown drops looking droplets on top of the powerhead right under the stator, so I went ahead and ordered a new stator yesterday from here, I hope I can get it before Thursday or Friday which are my days off, make that decision since it seems that after cranking and cranking the spark returns and stays as long as I don’t let the boat seat for extended periods of time, If I was to start the motor daily it would start….. I don't think its my kill switch nor the starter, my battery started leaking so I will throw in a new battery as well any recommendations as far a battery??? I don’t know how to make an adapter for my multimeter to test the output of the stator, I have a fancy multimeter, but I don’t think it can measure peak voltage, it has OHMS, DC and AC and other feature…could I have use that to measure/test for the 300 volts that the stator needs to put out??
It is odd that the common denominator is that after I remove plugs and crank and then re install the plugs spark returns, sometime I have to do that twice, don’t know if better contact is made after all the cranking or perhaps something warms up and triggers the stator to start changing and powering the power pack or what, I truly believe/hope it is the stator
 
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Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

man I'm trying to install my new stator, but shut, the flywheel won't come off, got the nut off and sprayed the shaft with WD-40 and nothing this thing is on good any ideas?
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

You need a factory flywheel puller. If you don't have that some people have successfully used a harmonic balancer puller. Make sure you use the correct bolts. Mine was a bear even with the correct tools.
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

nick, mine was a bear. I tried a harmonic balancer puller without cleaning the three bolt hole threads with a bottom tap. it stripped the threads in all three holes. had to tap a size larger. clean threads with bottom tap, blow out debris with compressed air, snug three bolts down, I built a puller with 3/4" plate,welded 3/4 fine thread nut on bottom of plate,screw grade 8 fine thread bolt into center of puller, leave flywheel nut on 2 or 3 turns loose , better to use a strap wrench around flywheel to hold it, then tighten the sh... out of the 3/4 bolt, keep head & hands away from top of flywheel , & watch for aircraft when tightening puller bolt. if it doesn't pop off, rap top of 3/4 bolt head solidly. don't try to drive it in, just a solid rap.if still not off retighten 3/4 bolt go get beer or 12 & ck it in the morning. don't use impact on puller bolts, don't hit or pry on flywheel, it will break or warp, new one is $1200. next time will be easier!! good luck, jeff :D
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Guys I took it off, used 3 fine tread (24) 5/16 bolts and a puller from Autozone, man that thing jumped like if it has a spring on it!!!! magnets looked good, old stator had black molasses/syrup looking stuff that was dried and dripped off of the three black power coils I think they are called, well to make the story short I installed the new stator, but the motor did not started, no spark… definitely it was time for a new stator, but unfortunately that did not solved my problem. Also went an bought a new battery(850 CCA and over 1000 CA), since mine was getting wet and started to "sweat"… but no luck with the spark, I can't see or think of anything I could have done wrong installing the stator, yellow wires go with yellow wires, orange with orange and the two plugs well can’t screw that up.... any ideas???
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

nick, go back on this thread & read my post # 6. that is what I went thru.don't know if it will help, but maybe.while you have the flywheel off push on the magnets sort of hard to make sure they are still glued & not just sticking with their magnetism. once i saw how quick they jumped at the crankshaft & other metal parts I found out how powerful they were.your man. tells how to ck each component, I was able to tell by the ohm-resistance numbers that I got that were difffent from the manual, that my timing sensor was what was wrong all this past year. replacing some things helped but didn't fix it until I cked the timing sensor.good luck!
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

I will get on it, as soon as I get some time, man it so odd how spark comes and goes like that but just on the first start...on the troubleshooting chart it says to disconnect the regulator/rectifier and see if spak returns, in this case what does the rectifier/regulator has to do with no spark...just trying to make sense of all these...
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

I found that I overthought all that stuff, trying to figure it out. hours & days & wee hours of the night I'd wake up thinking about it. I finally stopped & just followed the instructions in the man. didn't take long at all to get to the bottom of it that way. I never found a way to ck volts without buying the peak reading volt meter they tell you to use. I was only able to ck ohms-resistance with my cheap analog,needle style volt meter.if you continue to try starting or running it your worst fears will come to life.other components will fry. break down, go to home depot, buy cheap meter, ck ohms on timing base, then stator, then pp. or buy the expensive peak read meter. start where the spark starts, then progress down the food chain. timing base, stator then pp then rectifier. at least that makes sense to me. I think they want us to start at pp because #1 it is cheaper to replace & # 2 it is usually the first to go. I am embarressed it took me almost a year to find the source of my erratic ( at times no ) spark issue. I couldn't make myself buy the peak read meter for a one time issue. If I had known it would take so long to find my problem I would have spent $ 500. for it & went fishing. ok I'm done for the weekend, gone with buddies for relaxing enebriated weekend of fishing!!!!! good luck. jeff
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Gotta be the timer base. My 1989 225HP Johnnyrude has the same issues. I'm going to get off my lazy, fat %^&^* and go change mine after lunch. Will let you know how it works out
 
Re: Ignition system on a 1991 Johnson...

Thanks Racerone, you are smart for being just a member....why don't you try a little harder I know you have better advise than that...we all know one thing if there is black stuff coming out of the stator the stator is bad...so shut man why don't you give me something constructive instead of bashing me...but I will take my starter and get it tested...since I have no idea what a commutator is and what stub shaft are u talking about…
 
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