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Starting and ignition problem

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analogkid455

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I have a 1983 Crusader 454 that does not crank when there is 12 volts to the coil. If I unhook the voltage it will crank, but obviously won't start because I have no voltage at the coil! WTF? :mad:

The only thing I did was put a new flywheel on the engine. It worked fine before. The only wire I disconnected was the battery cable when I did the flywheel swap. I have tried everything that I could possibly think of to get this to work. Any suggestions?
 
Obviously, some wiring is hooked up wrong. There's a terminal on some starter solenoids that sends 12 volts to the coil for starting only (to by pass the ballast resistor). It may be that you've mixed up that terminal on the solenoid with the one that energizes the starter.

jeff
 
There is no ballast resistor. Like I said I didn't unhook anything but the battery cable and it worked before. Could a fried coil do this?
 
Does the dash voltmeter head to zero during the starting attempt with the coil connected? Is the wire going to the coil getting hot? If so, then the coil is suspect. IF not, I'd do a test of the wiring to/from the square start solenoid. Does it click when starting is attempted? Is it grounded properly? Some of these ground thru the metal mounting plate, and that might have been disturbed when the bell housing was removed.
 
meter doesn't move at all when attempting to start. it just stays at 13 volts. I have checked voltage everywhere and is present when and where it should be, which is making no sense why it won't crank. It doesn't even click. The ground seems to be good. I didn't notice the wire getting hot but the coil was hot.
 
Is the gear in neutral? and, those safety tranny start switches fail every 7 years or so. Find the small start solenoid, make sure the coil has 12v across it during cranking.
 
I checked the neutral safety switch. I get voltage to and from it. It won't crank if I have voltage going to the coil so I can't check for that.
 
The coil should not be drawing current, unless it's cranking. So, it could well be the ignitor module. But, that would also mean a lot of voltage drop in the engine wiring to/fro the ignition switch, which is concerning.
edit: does the voltmeter still show 13v during crank with the ign. coil connected?
 
It won't crank with power going to the coil. But if you mean connected to the solenoid and distributor, then it shows about 11.5 while cranking. I only get 1.5 volts without the purple power wire from the ignition switch hooked up.
 
Can you disconnect the - term of the coil, and measure ohms from the - wire to ground? THis should measure the ignitor output. If its shorted, it should show up here. Without a ballast resistor, and a short from coil - to ground, the coil is heating up and your wiring voltage drop won't allow the start solenoid to kick in.
 
I am not at the boat right now but I can test that when I go to it.

What I don't understand is what the ignition system has to do with the starting system?
 
THey both need 12 volts. If the ignition system draws some 20 amps during the cranking attempt, the system voltage drops to the point where the solenoid/relay won't pull in.
 
Well when I have voltage going to the coil and I try to crank it the volts stay at 13 like it isn't even trying to kick the solenoid. Something is disabling the starting circuit when I have voltage at the coil but I can't understand how that can be. Could something be back feeding or grounding out or.....?
 
I hate to be the crusty old geezer here, but I don't see how you swapped a flywheel without disconnecting a LOT more than just the battery cable.

If you don't have the ballast resistor, do you know the other modifications the engine has been subjected to? I'm wondering if the slave solenoid was "deleted", too. Add the current draw of the starter's solenoid to that of an unballasted ignition coil and you have a whole lot of current.

If the slave solenoid is present, it may have internal issues with it's coil. Add that current to the ignition coil's and a similar vintage ignition switch and I can see issues occuring. Same end result if the slave solenoid's ground isn't clean and tight.

Remember, you need to consume power to do any work. You need both volts and amps to produce the power. the point is to think of things in more than one variable.
 
Post #7. If there is "really" 12volts across the slave solenoid, it should click and send voltage/current to the starter. You need to do this with the ign switch in the start position. Try it with/without the magic coil + purple wire installed.
 
Well I couldn't slide the tranny back very far, just enough to get my arm in there so the wires didn't have to go very far.

The slave solenoid has indeed been deleted. I don't know who screwed with this thing bit it certainly not factory. But, the other engine is exactly the same and it works fine.

If the ignition coil is bad (shorted) would this disable the starting circuit?

Magic purple wire! That's what I been calling it! LOL!
 
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There isn't anything "disabling" the starting circuit. The existing wiring isn't supply enough current (AMPS) to produce enough power to engage the starter. Measure the current that passes thru the ignition switch with your current setup if you don't believe....and use a meter that will handle more than 10 amps (or have a spare fuse for the meter).

I'd suggest putting the slave solenoid back in, on both sides. Hopefully, you won't need to change the ignition switches.

If the distributor still has the points inside, I'd suggest getting a new set when you pick up the slaves....I'd be willing to bet they seen enough current that they are discolored and maybe a bit "toasted".
 
analogkid455 said:
The slave solenoid has indeed been deleted.
Click to expand...

OK, now things are getting interesting. There is no remote solenoid..... The purpose of that little box is to insure enough voltage is available to the big(er) solenoid on the starter, especially in a boat with the ignition switch quite far away (compared to a car). So, you have a system that won't be as tolerant to battery capacity and other losses in the wiring harness. I have seen a volt of drop just in the engine wiring connector.

SOOO, how much voltage is on the smaller starter wire, during a cranking attempt, with/without the magic coil wire installed?
 
OK, the distributors are electronic so I am guessing somebody put those in because 1983 I believe they still used points.

The start wire has about 11.5 volts while cranking and with the MAGIC purple wire hooked up it is 13 while trying to crank.
 
analogkid455 said:
The start wire has about 11.5 volts while cranking and with the MAGIC purple wire hooked up it is 13 while trying to crank.
Click to expand...

11.5v OK.... 13 volts with the switch on start, the stater NOT turning, and measured exactly where on the starter??? How many wires are connected to the starter? One comes from the battery, one comes from the safety tranny switch, and any others?
 
Yeah measured at the solenoid start wire. The solenoid has the purple wire from the coil, the start wire (yellow/red),Alternator #8 wire,battery cable, engine breaker wire and the starter cable.
 
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Since there is no ballast resistor to bypass, I don't understand why the purple wire goes to the starter. The yellow/red comes from the safety switch, correct? All others go to the big stud.

The purple wire to the coil should be sourced from the ign key switch, the "run" position. It is the same that runs the dash voltmeter, and el choke,if so equipped.
 
I don't understand why that wire is there either, but it won't crank without it hooked up. Yes the start wire comes from the safety switch. and Yes all others go to the big stud. And yes, the MAGIC purple wire from the ignition is going to the coil.
 
analogkid455 said:
I don't understand why that wire is there either, but it won't crank without it hooked up.
Click to expand...

I thought it would NOT crank with it hooked to the coil +. I must have missed something. I would short out the big and little starter studs together and watch it crank. I would ventilate, use gloves, sniff for fumes first. Not knowing now how your engine is wired makes this a bit risky.
The starter needs only the big stud to go to the battery, the small stud for cranking 12v, and ground thru the bellhousing. Are the mounting nuts tight?

Is there two small studs, one with the yellow/red the other purple?
 
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There is a wire from the coil positive to the solenoid, that one has to be hooked up to crank. The magic purple is the one from the ignition switch to the positive coil terminal.

Yes I double checked the tightness of the mounting bolts. If that starter wasn't grounded it wouldn't crank at all.

Is there two small studs, one with the yellow/red the other purple?
Click to expand...

Yes.


I messed with it all day yesterday as well. Didn't get anywhere. I have talked to several people that have decades in the business and no one else can figure it out either.
 
Make sure the yellow/red is connected to the small stud marked "S". It should not share that stud with any other wire. The other stud (maybe marked "I") does NOT get a wire, remove that purple wire. Since you already know that it won't crank, I suspect the starter solenoid is not finding ground. Are the two screws holding on the big round solenoid tightly fastened to the nose/frame of the starter?

The simple test is this. Take a wire and short from the S stud to the large stud going to the battery. If no crank, then replace the solenoid. You can get these at the local car parts store. Note there is a "metric" size and a "large" size. I think they just differ in length.

I think your solenoid is not finding ground, and was somehow using the purple wire to get ground. When the purple wire got connected to +12v, that ground supply went away. Either the shell of the solenoid became disconnected internally from the solenoid wire, or its mechanically floating.

http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm
there is a good picture of what you have vs. what crusader shipped.
 
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If I remove that wire it won't crank. The two bolts are tight that hold the solenoid to the engine block. I have tried starting with a jump from the start wire and the battery side of the solenoid. It works as long as the coil doesn't have power.The solenoid is new.

It makes sense that the solenoid may not be grounded but I have the bolts as tight as they will go without breaking them. Same with the starter bolts.
 
The solenoid is bolted with 1/4-20's to the starter nose, not the engine block, correct?

Before replacing the solenoid, again, probe a little with your ohmmeter. verify <<.1 ohms from the solenoid body to the battery neg. post. Verify about .4 ohms between the S stud and the battery neg post. this needs to be done without the purple wire installed. Was the solenoid replaced in an effort to fix this problem or before?
 
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