Identifying head

Hello Jeff and all, nice day to be alive.

Can you guys please help me id what sort of head I have here. The machine shop put them on with the wrong gaskets, I have found the right ones, but I am interested in figuring this out. I can't find a reference to these lower holes.

It has been a ridiculous exercise in futility that carries on...the same port engine that has now been rebuilt twice by the same shop under warranty will not time.

We have tripled checked everything, if we time it to the marks we can't run it lower than 1000 rpm without it stumbling and stalling. I have had two very good mechanics look at it and they are 95% certain the shop has the cam out of position by a tooth or two.

The water will not circulate with the t-stat in. Checked the t-stat and it opens fine, with it in the water is being blown out the overflow tube on the expansion tank and it seems to be disappearing internally someplace, but we have found no water in the plugs, nor leaks below?

The worst part is I wanted to pay to dyno them before they went back in, but the shop had built them completely and said I would void my warranty if I disassembled the manifolds etc. to put them on the dyno.

Cheers!

Norm

Huh! Those have to be some kind of automotive heads with emissions ports for EGR. (Never seen anything like them before.) Obviously, water and or air is going into/ out of those little holes and causing all kinds of hell!


!. The heads have to go. Period. If the company who sold you this motor as a MARINE engine, then they owe you another engine that IS a marine engine.

2. If you bought this motor NOT as a marine engine.... Too bad.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff,

I knew it wasn't marine, it does have to go - no doubt.

I'd like to find out the specs for this wrong head I and the one that should be on there.

These heads were installed by the first mechanic that rebuilt my engine the first time, which lasted ten hours. That resulted in an insurance claim, but it still cost me heaps. The rebuild shop that was paid to rebuild it the second time has carried over his mistakes, not once but twice.

The first rebuild from the shop wouldn't get full oil pressure and this latest engine is their warranty job that is in the boat and won't time or circulate the coolant with the t-stat in. Zero hours, just installed.

Here is an email from the shop owner not willing to send the engines out for a dyno test at my expense before I paid his final invoice.

The deal I worked was they would rebuild both of my engines, at their cost in parts for my starboard counter rotation and I would cover the re&re of their first bomb.

"Norm I have already made the commitment to rebuild the number 1 engine at no cost to you and I have rebuilt the second engine mostly at my expense to a running complete engine. I am not going to continue this game with you. These engines are beautiful engines. You are looking for problems that do not exist. I made you an extremely good offer and am not going to do anything further. If you wish to receive these engines you know the requirements. THe warranty will be a standard marine engine warranty of 60 days.
without predjudice
Wayne"

Despite Wayne's assurances, I still wanted them to go to the dyno after I paid for them, but Wayne said if I disassembled any part of the motors including the exhaust manifolds to dyno test them I would void the warranty. I tried to reason with him that it would be better to find any problems before they went back in.

Engine FOUR now! I'll be yanking this one on Monday as soon as the shop manager comes down and meets with my trusted mechanic who was too busy to do the job the first time - I should have waited...

The counter rotation runs and sounds good at the dock and timed spot on. The test will be WOT and in this old gal that equates to 45 mph at 4000 and that was when her motors had over 4000 hours on them.

I'll leave out a bowl of peanuts for the machine shop crew, do you think they will have a hard time if I get the whole ones still in the shell?

An exercise in how not to rebuild an engine.

Here is his response when I said I wanted them to go to the dyno and if they failed I wanted a full refund to have them done elsewhere...

Under no circumstances are your demands to be met. I made a very generous offer to you which is now off the table . The engines are here completed to spec and assembled as per your request. The warranty is a stansard marine engine warranty of 3 months, labour at $45.00 per hour maximum $600.00. Any failure to be reported prior to any dissasembly of components. Any prior disassembly of engine voids all warranty. Any disassembly of components voids warranty on those components. The units are to be paid prior to any removal from our site They are FOB our location, we will not deliver.
without prejudice Wayne

"stansard marine engine warranty" with automotive heads as Doug my experienced mechanic said "WTF?"

..."a standard marine engine warranty" requires a MARINE engine! Time to call your lawyer.

Jeff

These are "air injection" holes. I used to run these heads on my race motors. All you need to do is run a tap through them and install set screws with sealer.

Thanks Dynamax,

These guys sold me rebuilt marine engines and that is what I want.

Jeff, I hope that a lawyer won't be necessary, I do have a very good maritime spe******t standing by, at $380/hr it will cost the shop a lot more than a refund.

I'm glad email made it easy for Wayne to put it all in writing...

Norm

maybe this helps ........

Those air injection wholes are legit and don't indicate whether they're
marine or auto head castings. The exhaust manifolds tell the tail.......

Chrysler made 2 different manifolds up until '75ish and beyond. the earlier ones came to a point along the top and looked like a triangle when looked at from the end. The newer ones are the ones we're more familiar with the squared off top which allowed bigger water passages but another difference you wouldn't notice unless they were side by side is the newer manifolds have longer 'tabs' that hang down from the exhaust port opening to cover those injection wholes since marine engines aren't emission compliant.....It's no coincidence that the newer manifolds came out at the same time the emission requirements started to mandate changes in their automotive engines.

You could either go back the the original gasket kit made for your model exhaust manifold with the 3 individual gaskets or put set screws in there like suggested before.

Mine are that way.....



Jack

The ports and valves are also larger in the automotive heads, where the marine heads deliver better mid-range torque. Be careful of a port mismatch on either side of the heads and you'll be okay. And use a sealer when you plug those emissions holes.

Jeff

Thanks Jack, we did get the three piece gasket set and covered over the holes.

The machinist came down yesterday to have another look. Whilst here he mentioned that the shop took the timing cover off the engine after they ran it up.

"As previously discussed Pacific Parts can find NO fault of ours with the primary engine. The oil pump has been sent to the manufacturer for closer inspection The main and rod bearing clearances were all right in tolerance range, there were no issues with the camshaft or the cam bushings, the cylinder heads were good We basically cleaned and refit the engine with a new oil pump" Wayne

After they ran the new rebuild it too had low oil pressure. When pressed the machinist said they took the timing cover off to access some oil galley plugs that were either leaking or not there.

They found the oil pressure problem, which Wayne was still pretending it wasn't their fault, and they most likely have got the cam out of alignment solving the first problem. They didn't run it back up after they put it back together for the third time. So they didn't check the timing either.

The engine comes back out today and the front will come apart here in the yard before it goes back to the shop so we can see what is wrong.

This time it goes to the dyno. I'm checking what the compression is in the counter-rotation engine and making sure that these heads are the same compression.

I'll replace swap out these heads with my marine when I find out where they are and get them rebuilt.

Now that I understand the cause of the oil pressure loss I know that the engine was never right.

The marine mechanics that installed the second rebuild, ran it on the hard but didn't check the oil pressure before they dropped it in the boat. They should have put a remote gauge on it.

These engines went straight in with no testing as Wayne insisted.

They are covering the costs of the lift and doing the re&re. And they will cover the dyno cost.If there are any problems on the dyno, the shop that is doing the test is a top notch engine company and Jimmy will pull it apart and put it right. I have put a link below, after all this failure it is so good to look at Jim's work.

He sorted out a pair of Chris Craft/Ford 427s last year the same shop got wrong putting KB pistons in them with a compression of 11:1 - they lasted ten minutes on the sea trial.

http://www.richmondengines.com

I am glad to finally know what the oil pressure issue was, I can go back now and collect a lot of good cash that went after the BAD.

Two seasons "storage", two installs, lifts, cranes, yard time the works!

Heads are going to roll... if you'll pardon the pun LoL.

Thanks for your input and help.