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Honda 2003 BF 130 hp Stalling

davit_man

New member
Sorry this is a little long but moderator said put in all the info up front:

My friend's 2003 Honda BF130a is stalling after a several month layup due to hydraulic steering problem.

About 10 days ago I did basic service (I can do simple stuff reasonable well on engines) on boat after the steering was repaired (plugs, oil, main boat supply fuel filter, lower unit oil and impeller). No sign of fuel in the oil. The old fuel in the tank was untouched. We test ran the boat for short run at all speeds with no problem.
On return to dock 30 gal. of fuel which had been sitting for some time (probably ethanol fuel) was added to the 50 gal. boat tank.

The boat was run the next day with the stalling problem. Have a shop manual for a couple of year earlier 115/130 and generally following that protocol.

Engine history - purchased in 2002 and has run perfectly till 2010. Appears that little or no service done on engine since 20 hour check other than perhaps oil and oil filters. Actually this is a tribute to this Honda. Shortly after engine purchased, a new 50 gal. aluminum fuel tank was installed in this 20ft. Sea Craft center console. The replacement tank is located such that the fuel pickup fitting on tank is not accessibe through the old pie eyes in the deck. Only the fuel sender and the fuel tank vent fitting can be seen.

This engine is after the famous recall for the High Pressure Fuel Pump (it has the new design) and the only recall outstanding is the main relay but that should not cause this problem.

Engine cranks and starts every time but would sometimes idle rough and die and when on plane (3600 rpm and higher ) would suddenly loose power in surges clearly sounding like fuel starvation. Primer ball is not going "flat" although when problem occurs the Vapor separator is clearly drained as the primer ball is soft and must be pumped many times till vapor separator float valve closes.

Have been troubleshooting for over a week now and suspect a fuel supply problem either from a restriction from the tank to the engine or inadequate flow from the fuel lift pump. Problem occurs even if gas cap off fuel tank fill line.
 
Here is what I've done:
Could not do fuel pressure check as new high pressure fuel pump has tiny plug (metric ?) on housing of high pressue filter as only evident spot to tap in but fuel pressure seems fine as long and pump gets fuel.

Replaced engine low pressure fuel fiter

Cleaned engine fuel water separator (no water)

Ran boat a couple of times with an auxilliary tank and seemed to run fine then once or twice got same stalling and had to hand pump the Vapor container full again.

Replace engine high pressure fuel filter (found completely collapsed onto itself and based on difficulty getting screws out I suspect never been changedi in 7 years)

Remove and inspected fuel supply pump (no obvious issues nor any screens evident)

Pulled fuel supply pump discharge line and appears to flow OK when engine momentarily started (pressure not checked)

Ran engine and pull each injector connector with noticable drop in RPM each time - appear all injectors working proberly

Drained fuel tank and filled with non-ethanol fuel

Blew back through fuel supply hose (3/8") back into tank with compressed air- this appears to have helped as engine ran for a full day fishing/dive trip immediately afterwards.

Replaced above deck fuel hoses from Racor type boat filter to engine (had to adapt a 3/8" to 5/16" connector as engine fuel connector is for 5/16".

No check engine light on but when ECM codes checked per procedure got the three blinks for the MAP sensor - lubricated and re-attached the MAP sensor connector and the code did not reappear (hopefully this will help with the rough idle and stall at idle I was getting which may have been completely separate from the stalling from fuel starvation)

Diassembled the High Pressure Pump and Vapor Separator and cleaned all - found small amounts of residue appear reasonable after 7 years of servce, Float valve worked fine so did not disassemble it, plastic jacket/sleeve around fuel pump could not be removed without destruction and appears to have a fine screen built into the bottom for the pump suction. Carefully cleaned this with clean gas and blew out with air through a small acces port that connects pump housing to vapor separator housing.

Test run after fuel tank drain and refill and MAP sensor connector yesterday gave good idling results but still had one stall at high RPM when on plane (I assume from fuel starvation as primer ball was soft but not collapsed and had to pump VST full to resume operation) boat gets back up on plane and runs normally after filling the VST with the primer ball. Opened fuel line and blew back by mouth into tank then by milking primer ball I can get it to eventually stay full and the engine my run fine all day such as it did for the all day trip the day before.

Other potential caused I plan to check are:

1. either low pressure pump inadequate suction or inadequate flow rate
2. fuel line supply problem (fouled or plugged screen on pick up tube) -
3. I have also heard of anti syphon valve in the fuel tank - do all fuel tanks have this. I assume this is some kind of check valve to prevent flow back into the fuel tank. The fuel ball does the same thing if oriented vertically
4.Fuel line air leak (is only way to test a pressure check?) without physically removing the fuel supply hose from the tank which I can not get at without removing T-top and center console
5.Injectors - I can't think of an injector problem that would cause the VST to run empty while the engine is running smoothly at 3600 to 5000 rpm???
6. Engine compressing check not done but no symptoms I see here suggesting a compression problem (runs strong and smooth when it runs)
 
 
Any ideas For checks I can do on either pump discharge pressure and flow or fuel line/tank for flow and possible air leaks?
 
Re: Honda BF130 Stalling

First of all...very complete info.

I did not see (or I missed) if you changed your high pressure fuel filter in the vst.

It does sound like you have a low pressure fuel system problem.

You said you blew back through the fuel line to the tank. If the fuel bulb was in the circuit, you should not have been able to blow back because of the check valve. It is possible that your check valve is bad and causing you problems. It sounds like a problem, but maybe not your main problem.

Also, if you have an antisyphon valve, it would indeed block your blowing back into the fuel tank.

When you blow back into the tank, if there is debris on the pickup tube, you would be clearing that blockage for the time being.

If you are going to change you fuel bulb, get a Johnson/Evinrude bulb. They are the best going. Also, make sure it is oriented either horizontal or pointing up.

As for checking for air. Get a piece of clear plastic hose and insert it at various places along the fuel path and watch for air bubbles. Move it along the path to find the source.

If you have a small portable tank to run your tests, that can eliminate your built in tank from the equation. If the problem still exists, then your built in is probably ok.

The more I think about it, I have the feeling there is debris partially blocking the pickup tube in the tank.

Mike
 
Re: Honda BF130 Stalling

I agree with all Hondadude wrote. If I were to pick the most likely of those issues, it sounds to me as if you have air entering the fuel system. So, get the clear plastic tubing and go from connection to connection, starting from the pump up bulb to the on board water separator, looking for air bubbles.

One other thought. If you have an external fuel-water separator (e.g. a Racor, which you should have) bypass that for a run. They have been known to leak air (at the top seal or at the drain) when they are under heavy load.
 
Re: Honda BF130 Stalling

=============================
6/16/10 update to two reply posts
Thanks for replies: Gave me good ideas and some confidence after so many hours on this motor.
Some clarifications and my plan of attack:
1. High pressure filter was changed and was totally collapsed on itself from HP pump pressure.
2. Tank blow back done upstream of boat fuel filter by mouth and by using 100 psi. Air flows out of tank vent. Did again yesterday evening as boat going for reef dive all day today. I take it this means no anti-siphon valve or an inoperable one.
3. Did run boat twice on portable tank but lost track if I did it after finding all the problems. I was chasing two problems but did not know if they were from a common cause (first -stalling at power/fuel starvation and second - rough idle/occasionally die at idle). I am hoping the second problem was the bad MAP sensor connection described in my original post.
Still have a couple of questions if anyone knows answers:
A. What is spec. for suction and/or discharge pressure and flow for low pressure pump
B. Is there a reasonable way to measure high pressure fuel pressure (I have a guage but only fitting apparent is a tiny 6mm seal bolt on HP filter housing (see item #43 on following diagram:
(http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Honda/Outboard%20Engine/2003/BF130A3%20LA%20MARINE%20ENGINE%2C%20JPN%2C%20VIN%23%20BZBE-1400001%20TO%20BZBE-1499999/VAPOR%20SEPARATOR/parts.html)
Side note - Also the screen I cleaned is at the bottom of the HP pump is #31 "Insulator" on same diagram. Could not pull it out without destroying it as I did not have a replacement on hand so cleaned with tiny tool (bobby pin bent to shape) through bottom inlet to pump housing. With proper light and motor removed you can look down from top of pump case #48 and see the tip of bobby pin through the screen and the clearing of the debris as you gently wipe it with a little fresh gas then blew out from both directions with air.
C. Does the Honda BF115/130 have screens in the injectors??? If they do I am sure from the condition of the HP fuel filter there is crap on them. (Reason I ask is that a
Mechanic friend just repaired a Yamaha 115 4 stroke by "cleaning" fuel injector screens/filters. He described them as needing to look bright orange when finally clean and beats cost of replacing the injectors. Boat ran perfect after he did it!)
Plan of attack:
1. Do clear hose test for air inleakage as you described (seems obvious to start at engine inlet and if none there it eliminates the boat side of the fuel system). Second place to check is probably inlet to vapor separator.
2. If no air in leakage found will pursue either fuel tank/line restriction (the portable fuel tank direct to engine should eliminate the problem is this is cause) My concern here is that the problem appears intermittent as though either air leak comes and goes or fuel pick up screen in tank re-clogs up over time and boat motion. May wait for problem to reappear and then test with the portable tank.
3. Will change primer ball and use the OMC ball ASAP just for insurance after tests unless I find it leaking air.
 
Re: Honda BF130 Stalling

Sounds like a good plan.

To answer your questions...

I do not know of any spec on low pressure fuel pump. As I recall, I have experienced around 4 - 7 lbs.

As for checking the high pressure fuel pressure. The only place that I know to test it is at the 6mm bolt hole, like you said. Honda has a special gauge and connector to screw in there.

I do not recall any screens in the injectors. I will have to check one that we have in stock. If it has a screen, it may be internal.

Mike
 
Re: Honda BF130 Stalling

6/17/10
Thanks for reply on Fuel Pressures. I may make a test fitting by drilling a bolt and brasing a nipple on it. Have another friend who has done this several times to make custom test fittings. Here in the Florida Keys it seems every other person has some experience with marine mechanics!

Update: Boat was run for another dive trip yesterday prior to the additional testing described above.
Result: Stalled once from apparent fuel starvation - ball was pumped then ran fine the rest of the day.

Hope to do air inleakage testing today or tomorrow.
 
Re: Honda BF130 Stalling

Thu 6/17/10 Update

Performed clear hose test this evening after searching various stores for all the proper hose and hose barbs. This test is a little complicated as the boat fuel supply is 3/8" but has to be reduced to engine feed hose of 5/16" ( damn those fuel efficient Hondas!).

Hooked up a 5/16" clear hose direct to engine fuel connector and sure enough bubbles galore! Worked way back and eliminated the ball and finally narrowed it down to the brand new water separator/fuel filter (won't name brand here but it is reputable).

Test run after installing old filter which I had saved with short but flawless run at all speeds. Left clear hose hooked up to motor so I could monitor air inleakage the entire run. Owner would not agree to leave the clear hose for the dive trip tomorrow (said it looked too surgical or geriatric!)

Will advise after dive trip tomorrow and party outing on Saturday. Needless to say will replace old Water separator/fuel fiter witn new and assure no leaks with my new clear hose trick!

Not getting too exited though yet as I have fixed many apparent causes to date with the problem still coming back to haunt me.
 
Re: Honda BF130 Stalling

Sounds like you nail it. Your description indicated air in the fuel line. Let us know if that was the problem.
 
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