Last effort to fix Honda bf225

Hey gang,

New poster here. A friend of mine sent me a link to this site as it sounds like there are some very knowledgable posters in the honda section. I have been searching for an answer in regards to my 2003 honda bf225 and have only been able to come to one conclusive answer. 2003 was not a good year for the BF225. There a ton of people seeking answers for their problematic 2003's. Anyways, hopefully you all will be able to help pin point my problem. I have a thread posted at thehulltruth with limited success, have searched the net tirelessly for an answer and have even tried to use the marine section at justanswer.com and offered up $78 if one of their experts could help me pinpoint my problem. So far I have no luck. If there is anyone on here that can help me I would be more than willing to make it worth your while. If money is not your thing, I would be more than willing to send you some fresh halibut or copper river salmon as a thank you.

Here is my thread on thehulltruth.com http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/281117-need-help-my-honda-bf225.html and here is what I posted at justanswer.com

I live in a rural area in Alaska and need some help with my 2003 Honda Bf225. The motor has about 225 hours on it. I have owned the boat and motor for about two years now and have been fighting this since the end of last summer. The problem first occured while drift fishing in following seas as the motor got splashed pretty good. The motor idles very rough and just bogs down very badly when you put it in gear. If you switch gears to fast it will die. For a while it was intermenent but is now full time. To this point I have changed or done the following....

*New high Pressure Filter
*New low pressure filter
*New high pressure fuel pump filter
*New high pressure fuel pump
*New gas line to the motor
*ran engine on portable fuel tank for 20 min with fresh gas
*squeezing the bulb does nothing while under way
*took apart VST system and did visual check, needle and float looked clean.
*sprayed out IAC valve with MAF cleaner
*No alarms

*Would a bad o2 sensor present these symptoms?

Optional Information:
Make (of engine): Honda
Model (of engine): BF225
Year: 2003
Horsepower: Honda BF225

mmmm.... I would take apart (un-mate) every electrical connector on the engine and make sure that there isn't any entrapped water or corroded connections. Those under the hood connectors are supposed to be "water resistant", but sometimes don't do a good job. Entrapped sea water can dry with heat, but later residual salt left behind will absorb humidity from the air... Same problem can occur with open terminal blocks.

It sounds like you got saltwater into the exhaust and that creates a lot of problems. I am not a mechanic but like to read the posts since I have 2008 225 Honda and want to keep up on it.
There is a service bulletin on this, I think it is #56. If you search you will find it on this forum. Hopefully some of the Honda mechanics will see this and try to help you.

I hadn't thought about checking all of the connections, that is a good idea. I have done a thorough visual inspection but did not take apart anything electrical.

I really hope TSB #56 isn't my problem. If my #6 cylinder was bad I assume I would have a whole set of different symptoms. The spark plugs aren't corroded or anything. Plus the problem was intermentent for a while.

Can anyone here tell me how to properly use a paper clip to pull codes? There are four terminal connections and I am not for sure which ones need to be short circuited.

Have you checked the compression on the engine?... If the compression of #6 is within the range of the others, not likely damaged.

Will check compression and get back to the forum in the morning.

As Capt Bob suggested, compression is good to get.

From your posts to other forums, it looks like you have already checked fuel pressure.

I did not see that you had any audible or visual alarms.

Do you have four indicator lights? Red - overheat Green - oil pressure Red - Charging and Red - PGMFI (engine check light)?

Do you have a SCS shorting plug to see if you have any codes? If not, I would highly recommend it. Part number 070PZ- ZY30100 There is a way to short the connector with just a wire but I would not recommend it. It you short the wrong wires, you can blow the ECM.

If you have already checked for codes. Did you have any?

If no codes, then you have to go after the areas like fuel, vacuum, etc that do not throw codes.

As you are checking all the connections, check all the hose connections and conditions. Check for pinched or split vacuum lines. It is possible to have a clogged injector or two and it will not throw a code.

I do not know of an easy way to do a cylinder drop test without an HDS on a 225. I hesitate to suggest to disconnect the spark coils one at a time. I am not sure what that might do to the ECM. Maybe someone else has tried it, without problems.

That can help isolate the problem cylinder, if compression is otherwise ok.

Also check to see if your engine is getting warm and heating up to operating temperature. A thermostat stuck open and cause a lot of runability problems. I am not sure if they are as bad as what you are experiencing though.

There are several very knowledgable guys on this forum that own 225's and really know the engine. Hopefully, they have some ideas to add.

Mike

If you need a copy of SB #56, send an e-mail to me at [email protected].

In a nutshell, the problem with the old-type exhaust tubes (which you likely have)was that under certain circumstances, they allowed water to back up into the exhaust tube and blow the O2 sensors. And, that sounds like your problem. In the worst case scenario, water could also be siphoned into the lower pistons and cause a water block that could blow the engine. Page 7 of the SB describes a few things you can do to help prevent a reoccurance. The biggest issue is the clearance of the exhaust tube outlets - they must be at least 5.9 inches above the waterline. The higher, the better.

If you are the original owner, I would go back to the dealer and ask him/her to petition Honda for a "goodwill" warranty repair.

Last fall, on this forum, one of the folks replaced the exhause tubes himself, and documented the procedure quite well. You may want to search for that.

BTW - when you removed and inspected the VST, did you clean the little screen on the pickup?

Hey all, I wasn't able to check for compression last night as we had rain moving in. I was able to short circuit the red diagnostic plug but no codes were thrown. However, the pgmfi light stayed lit and didn't blink. Normal?

How long does should it take a bf225 to come up to operating temps in 55 degree water? I wonder if this could be an issue as I have let it run for 20 minutes with no change in temp from the tell tale.

E-mail in bound for a copy of sb #56.

BTW - when you removed and inspected the VST, did you clean the little screen on the pickup?

Click to expand...

I did ended up changing this out as I broke the little mother when trying to remove for visual inspection. (Edit: Your talking about the screen below the fuel pump?)

Has anyone ever seen symptoms like this with a fried 02 sensor not throwing out codes?
I really appreciate everyones help on here.

I wasn't able to locate the rebuild thread of the exhaust manifold. Does anyone have it saved?

Pull the T-stats and test them! Check specs in your owner's manual. I think they should start to open around 140 degrees F and be completely open at 160 degrees. Should open at least 3 mm.

If they are stuck up, that is likely your problem. And if so, you should change your oil, too, since it is likely contaminated with gas blowing by the cold rings.

I'll take the salmon!

Does anyone have a diagram of where the t-stats are located? The top is one is easy to find but am not sure about the second one. (Yes I plan to buy a Honda repair manual) I have looked through the diagramons on boats.net and have not been able to locate the second one?

At the top of each side of the block. There is a t-stat for each bank of three cylinders.

When checking/changing the T-stats - use new O rings.

Checked the t-stats last night and everything looks good. They weren't seized open or anything. I haven't taken off the 02 sensor yet for examination as I need to buy the special socket for it and it is crazy expensive at napa.

Still haven't checked for compression but hope to tonight as it has been raining pretty steady. Looks like I will get a window to try it tonight.

This is getting crazy. You did all the worked described, no alarms or fault lights, the ECM is throwing no codes, T-stats okay, you checked all electrical connections.

We're overlooking something. Here is my top-of-mind...
1. Vacuum leak somewhere (sse # 4 below.)
2. Didn't see any mention of the low pressure fuel pump and fuel line pressure regulator. Have you checked/tested those?
3. You said you cleaned the IAC. I would take another look there.
4. Looking at the fuel system diagram in the shop manual, there is something called an intake air bypass (IAB) control valve between the low pressure pump and the VST. That's where two vacuum lines connect. Remove the two-prog connector and clean it. As part of this procedure, check your number 5 fuse (10 Amp), which controls that valve. Remove, inspect, and clean the vacuum lines. If you have a vacuum gauge, check that each of the outlets is producing a vacuum at idle. There is an electrical test for the IAB control itself, but let's see what you get at this point.

chawk_man said:

This is getting crazy. You did all the worked described, no alarms or fault lights, the ECM is throwing no codes, T-stats okay, you checked all electrical connections.

We're overlooking something. Here is my top-of-mind...
1. Vacuum leak somewhere (sse # 4 below.)
2. Didn't see any mention of the low pressure fuel pump and fuel line pressure regulator. Have you checked/tested those?

I haven't really messed with the low pressure fuel pump. It was my understanding that if the symptoms persist when squeezing the bulb while the engine is operating then it is likely not a low side fuel issue. Is this incorrect? Not real sure how to test the fuel line pressure regulator but will take it off and inspect for operation.

3. You said you cleaned the IAC. I would take another look there.

The IAC was surprisingly clean and was cleaned out thoroughly with MAF cleaner. I will reinspect.

4. Looking at the fuel system diagram in the shop manual, there is something called an intake air bypass (IAB) control valve between the low pressure pump and the VST. That's where two vacuum lines connect. Remove the two-prog connector and clean it. As part of this procedure, check your number 5 fuse (10 Amp), which controls that valve. Remove, inspect, and clean the vacuum lines. If you have a vacuum gauge, check that each of the outlets is producing a vacuum at idle. There is an electrical test for the IAB control itself, but let's see what you get at this point.

I will start with this and see what I find out.

Click to expand...

.....Thanks again for your help.....

You are correct on the low pressure fuel pump.

I'm really scratching my head on this one. I'm not a certified mechanic, but grew up in a garage and have been working on engines all my life. I've owned a 225 going on three years and have tried to teach myself everything I can about that engine. This one has me stumped.

A little more information. Did a compression test last night and all cylinders were +/- 205 on my crappy tester so I was relieved. One other thing, when using or testing the engine I always immdeiatly take it over to the fresh water station to rinse out the salt. Last night, since I was going to do the compression test I immediatly parked the rig in order to make sure I had a warm engine for the test. When I took off the cowling, I almost passed out from a very rich fuel smell. I didn't see any kind of spills or leaks, just a very rich smell. Maybe a sensor telling the comp to dump in more fuel? IAC or TPS? I am going to pick up the 02 socket today and will report back.

I did check the (IAB) last night and everything looked good. It is hard to know for sure though without the proper diagnostic equipment. Fuse was good.

Compression good - fuel leak bad. But at least that focuses you back onto the fuel system. Time for a bug hunt, again.

Top of mind, again...

1. Are you sure the service check bolt at the HP filter is tight and not leaking around the 12 mm sealing washer?
2. Make sure the VST drain screw is tight, and nothing is leaking out of the VST drain tube.
3. Recheck for check engine codes again.
4. Beyond that, all I can suggest is to take off the cover and lower cowling, crank it up in a test tank, and look for the leak. Recheck all the fuel line connections and filter seals under pressure.

Also, check the vst high pressure filter cover edges for leaks. Have someone turn the keyswitch to on (do not run engine) a couple of times and look around the vst filter cover. It is possible that you cut the o ring around the cover, when you installed the high pressure filter.
Turning the key on builds up the pressure, so you do not have to run the engine. It is easier to see that way.

Haven't added much since my last post since chawk_man seems to be covering things pretty good.

Neal,

Have you ever done a cylinder drop test by disconnecting the coils to the cylinders one by one? I am not sure if that could damage anything. I will ask my Honda rep the next time I talk to him, which may be in a couple of days because of an engine I am working on at work.

A cylinder drop test could really help isolate if there is an injector problem.

Mike

Mike - thanks for dropping in on this one. I'm scratching my head alot on this issue.

Futurerancher - keep us posted on your progress. This one is turning into a real mystery, and will end up providing us all with an education.

I'll reply to your question in a private message.

No real news to speak of. I was able to get the 02 sensor out finally and it was severly corroded. Would a malfunctioning 02 sensor throw a code? I know that a faulty one will, but what if it became corroded and just decided to output the wrong info? Would the ECM know that the 02 sensor wasn't operating within its parameters and was giving out faluty information? I only ask because I have had no codes thrown or beeps to speak of. I know the system works as I get the "good to go" double beep at ignition.

A malfunctioning O2 sensor will throw off a "1" code. If the O2 heater circuit is faulty, it will throw off a "41" code. However, having said that, there have been cases on this forum where an O2 sensor has failed and no fault code was apparent.

A faulty O2 sensor or heater circuit doesn't line up with the strong gas smell you had. Any over-rich mixture would be drawn into the pistons. Pull your dipstick and smell the oil. If you get a gasoline smell, even a slight one, then that's a sign that too much fuel is being dumped into the cylinders. A faulty O2 sensor can do that, as well as several other malfunctions.

Did you check that the service check bolt at the HP filter is tight and not leaking around the 12 mm sealing washer? Did you check that the VST drain screw is tight, and nothing is leaking out of the VST drain tube? Did you check the vst high pressure filter cover edges for leaks?

chawk_man said:

malfunctions.

Did you check that the service check bolt at the HP filter is tight and not leaking around the 12 mm sealing washer? Did you check that the VST drain screw is tight, and nothing is leaking out of the VST drain tube? Did you check the vst high pressure filter cover edges for leaks?

Click to expand...

I have not been able to make it back the boat since I checked the 02 sensor to follow up on the above due to work but I will check on this tonight. My wife is due on June 15th and I am trying desperately to get the boat running before then so I can take visiting family out and use a little of my "sick leave" to go fishing while she is at home resting. We have two other kids and i can pretty much do whatever I want as I long as I get them out of the house so she can have some peace and quiet with the new little one.

Well I checked for fuel leaks last night and couldn't find anything. I am more convinced then ever that this is an 02 sensor issue. I did not start the engine but primed it three different times at three key turns per lot. There was no fuel smell present and no leaks that I could see.

A couple of observations though. Before I started, I primed the bulb about 6 times. Since the cowling was off I could hear what I assume was the vst reservoir being filled with each prime of the bulb. After the 6th prime it was hard. I assume this is normal as the reservoir likely losses some fuel due to vacum? Or should the tank always be full? Maybe I am having a problem keeping the VST primed with fuel? I have already replaced the bulb and fuel line to the motor. Secondly, the exhaust ports were rather sooty for only being run for a short period of time. Could this be a symptom of to much fuel? My plugs weren't neccessarily smoked out but they were dirty. I have new plugs and an 02 sensor on the way.

Two questions.

1) What is the correct procedure for pulling codes? I do not have any being thrown by the MIL but maybe I am pulling them wrong. On the red plug I am crossing the lime green and black wire with a paper clip. I have done it two ways...key on and then insert paper clip... and key off, insert paper clip and then turn key on. Am I doing something wrong here? Both ways only show a constantly lit MIL.

2) I have read on several other forums that guys have had success using Autolite XP 5224 spark plugs insted of the NGK or Denso's. They are replacing them on an annual basis. Anyone have experience with those? I ordered some as they are way cheaper ($6 instead of $16) so I will let you know if I have some performance issues.

The oxygen sensor is one of the sensors that help the ECM decide how to fire the fuel injectors. If it is "stuck" sending info to the ECM indicating the injectors need to give more fuel, then the engine will run too rich.

Let's hope that is it.

I have no opinion on the autolite plugs. I always use NKG. Not even Densos.

Mike

VST tank is normally full and under pressure unless motor has not been used for awhile. My 225 holds pressure for several days.

How sooty is sooty? A little soot (just a trace on the cowling) is normal. A lot is not. (BTW Simple Green does a good job of cleaning that off.)

I imagine that it is possible that if you were running very rich at idle when you shut off the engine, fuel fumes could seep out of the air intake and that would account for your strong gas smell. I sure hope that O2 sensor fixes the problem. If that does turn out to be the problem, smell your oil as I mentioned before. If there is any gas smell, change it.

(Hondadude - check me on this) The MIL should not stay on once you have clipped the connector. You are correctly shorting the lime green/white to black. MIL should go off or blink out a code. A bad O2 sensor is one blink. If the MIL stays on, that indicates a faulty wire or faulty ECM. (Shop manual is not handy, so I cannot say what circuits to look at.)

Well, don't blame you for trying to save some bucks, but I would look elsewhere than the plugs. Several folks have reported bad experiences with Denso's. Since the Autolites are not on Honda's approved list, I would be very cautious about using them.

chawk_man said:

(Hondadude - check me on this) The MIL should not stay on once you have clipped the connector. You are correctly shorting the lime green/white to black. MIL should go off or blink out a code. A bad O2 sensor is one blink. If the MIL stays on, that indicates a faulty wire or faulty ECM. (Shop manual is not handy, so I cannot say what circuits to look at.)

Click to expand...

I am very curious to see what Honda Dude or others reports on this. On another forum a while back I guy mentioned he had similar sympoms and it was diagnosed as a faulty pgmi which was under recall. Mine was replaced last year with the updated relay so I discounted that. Perhaps there is something to it?

If the light is not supposed to stay on, how do you clear codes so that I can check for the current issue at hand? Perhaps when they changed the pgmi they didn't clear codes? (assuming it was throwing one) I am the second owner of the boat and it was bought last summer from a dealer in Oregon.

I really appreciate everyones help on this, I mean it.