1984 115hp Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

I have a 1984 J115TLCRD 115HP...its starts ok, runs great above 1/2 throttle but smokes like mad at idle/just over idle and runs generally like crap near idle speed. Here's what I know; Compression 115ish on all 4 cyl, carbs cleaned out, needle/seat decent-float level good, thermostats seem ok but it actually seems to run cool. (should the heads be warm or HOT to the touch? I suspected the VRO pump so I disabled it and ran on straight 50:1 but it still does the same thing. There is an excessive amount of grey/milky oil mixture covering the prop and exhaust discharge even with no VRO hooked up. I assume this is unburned oil/gas mixture as the plugs seem quite wet when I inspect them.. (pressure tested lower unit - holds 15lbs all day and that oil is clean)..what could be causing it to run so rich? Operating temp not up enough? Fuel delivery problems? I am at a loss...any help greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Primer solenoid RED lever in wrong position?

(Fuel Primer Solenoid Function)
(J. Reeves)

The RED lever...... The normal operating/running position is to have that red lever positioned over top of the solenoid and aimed at the other end of the solenoid, gently turned to its stop. This is the normal/automatic mode position. Pushing the key in opens the valve within the solenoid allowing fuel to pass thru it in order to prime and start the engine. Looking upon this solenoid as a electric choke results in a better understanding of it.

Having that red lever turned in the opposite direction, facing away from the solenoid, allows fuel to flow thru it to the crankcase area. One would only turn the red lever to this position in a case where the battery might go dead and the engine had to be started via the rope pull method. Look upon putting the red lever in this position as moving a choke lever on a choke equipped engine to the full closed position. Either one would supply fuel to the crankcase/engine for starting purposes BUT if left in that position while running would flood the engine.

The later model primer solenoids are equipped with a schrader valve, used for attaching a pressurized can of fogging oil etc, available at your local dealership with complete instructions.

Pumping the fuel primer bulb up hard fills the carburetor float chambers of course, but that process also applies fuel pressure to the primer solenoid.
The two small hoses leading from the primer solenoid branch off via tees to each fuel manifold section that would feed fuel to the individual cylinders.
Pushing the key in activates the primer solenoid to allow fuel to flow thru it to the intake manifold passageways. Cranking the engine over causes the fuel pump to engage which in turn sends fuel pulses to the primer solenoid via the 3/8" fuel hose.
Some engines incorporates the "Fast Start" feature which automatically advances the spark electronically so no advance of the throttle is required for starting.
Engines that do not have the "Fast Start" feature will be required to have the throttle advanced slightly.
Starting procedure: pump fuel bulb up hard, crank engine and push the key in at the same time. When the engine fires/starts, release the key so that it falls back to the run position.
Bottom line..... Look upon the primer solenoid as an electric choke.

Is the oil side of the VRO pump plugged properly?

Head gasket failing, allowing water to enter combustion chamber (unlikely with proper compression but worth mentioning).

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Thanks...after reading more on here I have the Primer on my list to check tomorrow.. Can that be disabled also? Just to test to make sure its not allowing extra fuel while running.. I am pretty sure its in the correct position but will look again in the morning.

The VRO side is plugged ok...I will double check that too..would that cause rich condition?

The plugs do not appear to have any water on them or in the cylinders....

Would Part #2 here cause rich issues if it were bad? http://www.boats.net/parts/search/BRP/JOHNSON/1984/J115TLCRD 1984/INTAKE MANIFOLD/parts.html

What is proper operating temperature?

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Bottom line..... Look upon the primer solenoid as an electric choke.

Disable that primer solenoid and you'll have a hellava job starting that engine.

If the oil side of the VRO wasn't plugged, it wouldn't cause a rich mixture condition BUT it would allow air to enter the system.

Thermostats open at approximately 148° so it would run slightly hotter.

Part two that you speak of is a recirculating valve. There are four of them on that V4 engine that connects one cylinder to another. If one was faulty, one cylinder would run rich, the other lean. They can be checked with a slight bit of air pressure..... air/fuel should flow ONLY from the crankcase side to the nozzle tip area. If air flows both ways, replace it. (If one is faulty, best to replace all if they're original)

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

I dont see 4 valves on this...only the one pulse valve for the fuel pump...

I did more experimenting today...here are some videos:
this is it just running...doesnt seem all that bad on the videos... http://www.vimeo.com/12117340 You can see all the gray oil coming out the back in globs..

One of the things that came up on this site is possibly air in the fuel? So I took video of the fuel filter...should it be flowing steadily? I does look like its circulating some air?
http://www.vimeo.com/12117298 not sure what this does on a "good engine"

This is the junk coming out after only 5 minutes or so of running: http://www.vimeo.com/12117279 nasty stuff!!

And finally you can clearly hear it run differently when I spray crab cleaner at the base..there seems to be a vacuum leak somewhere down there...the question is if the intake manifold is accessable by just taking the carbs of? OR could there also be a vacuum leak where the power head mounts to the base? http://www.vimeo.com/12117267 I will have to take everything off to see what I can get at..strange a vacuum leak would cause a rich condition??? This thing is giving me a run for my money!!

BTW, the primer pump appears to work fine...floods it out when turned..runs ok when in the proper position. Also took TStats out again to check them in boiling water... all ok!

Also...you can see its a screamer at WOT...no problems there..runs great: http://www.vimeo.com/12026754

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Finally got around to playing with this again today...I found the check valves you were referring to under the carbs, circled in red. I removed them. 1 of them is completely blocked (no air flow) and the other 3 have air flow in both directions! Could this be the culprit of all my problems? Is it odd for all 4 to be bad? I will try replacing them and see what happens...anything else I should check while its all apart again?

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Those fuel recirculating valves may not be all of your problem BUT lets hope so.

As mentioned previously......

Part two that you speak of is a recirculating valve. There are four of them on that V4 engine that connects one cylinder to another. If one was faulty, one cylinder would run rich, the other lean. They can be checked with a slight bit of air pressure..... air/fuel should flow ONLY from the crankcase side to the nozzle tip area. If air flows both ways, replace it. (If one is faulty, best to replace all if they're original)

In your case, many cylinders would have the wrong amount of fuel allocated.

If you can't locate them, email me as I have a few new ones left in my remaining stock.

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

all cylinders seem to be very wet on the plugs. i found them online for $15/each..do you have 4 if them and how much? Need some gaskets also for a '79 2hp..head and side plate gasket...you have those? Do you have intake and carb mounting gaskets for the 115 too?

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

PM sent..................

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

reply sent

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Valves and gaskets just arrived!! Thanks Joe...I will be putting them in this afternoon...will give update when I test them out!!

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

OK...Now the fun begins...I tried the valves...it seemed a little better but not quite right...There was definitely a change in RPM when I was spraying carb cleaner at the BASE of where the power head mounts to the midsection. Specifically the bolt that is circled..for some reason there is a dramatic change in RPM when you spray carb cleaner there. I decided to take the powerhead off to see what was going on...nothing obvious seemed to be wrong..possibly the power head mounting gasket was blown? Would that cause running issues>? I am at my wits end here...it makes no sense why the plugs would be so wet and it would get such a terrible discharge from the exhaust. I am wondering if there was a lot of residual oil in the system from previous running with the bad valves that was spewing out after this run? Still, there was that running issue with what seems like a vacuum leak..but that still makes no sense for running rich...Is it possible for the fuel pump itself to just pump TOO much fuel and make it not run right??? I am stuck.. any ideas??? Do the reeds look like there is water along the intake manifold? See anything obvious in these pictures?? The circle on the midsection picture looks like that gasket could have been broken??

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

In looking at the top motor mount, it's obvious that the powerhead base gasket was blown between the motor mount and the exhaust outlet. This would allow exhaust gases to flow into that motor mount area which could then be drawn into the carburetors.

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

just curious what you think makes it obvious...I always wonder if I am looking at a broken gasket from pulling it apart and maybe something that is blown..I suspected the base gasket when I was spraying carb cleaner at the base and RPM changed dramatically...

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

The top of the motor mount appears to be covered with a oily substance. If this is an illusion, then I stand corrected that I am in error. If however, the top of the motor mount is actually oily..... there's only one area that oil could have come from.

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

ok...that makes sense...it is definitely oil on there...that should be clean I assume? Thanks for all the great help...I am almost done getting everything back together..I can only put in about 2 hours each day...should be done this weekend...

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

all back together...slight improvement in the way it runs with new powerhead mounting gasket but still have a terrible oily mixture coming out the exhaust. its not as much now but still significant. Spraying carb cleaner around the circled bolt area still causes drastic changes in rpm (it drops like its flooding out)...That is the bolt that connects the crankcase together..also, if I unhook the fuel recirculating hose of the side it seems as though the fuel mixture there comes out bubbling and it might have water mixed in with it there...is there even water circulating in the front 1/2 of the engine?? Where could that come from? Its FRESH fuel mixture in a clean 6 gallon tank I am using! Hard to see in the video but I put it on anyway..could that be dumping fuel right in to the intake?? this problem is really getting to me now...Hey Joe, pack your bags...I'm buying you a plane ticket to NY to look at this one!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2QQ6F0liAk

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

There are no water passages in the forward portion of that engine.

The circled bolt area...... that's the shift rod area and there are no bolts at that center portion of the engine..... only to the right and left of the shift rod area. Spraying anything at that area should have absolutely no effect on the engine as there is no way a mixture could gain entrance to the crankcase at that point UNLESS the intake manifold has somehow become warped.

A warped manifold is corrected simply by doubling up on the large intake manifold gasket. This warping was common on some of the 150hp models some years back but I've never encountered it on a V4 model.

I assume that the spark plugs are Champion QL77JC4 plugs? Try gapping them at .040 .

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

I really appreciate you taking the time to look at this....I meant to say spraying carb cleaner at the arrow, not the circled area..

After thinking about this all day and not actually working on it I have some thoughts. This is whats baffling to me:

1. I am getting excess oil in the exhaust that is coming out almost like whipped cream at the prop and the plugs (yes, QL77JC4-Gapped at .040!) are wet with oily/gas mixture

2. There seems to be a vacuum leak-indicated by the carb cleaner spaying..makes NO SENSE-that would make it run lean..

My questions are:

What should the fuel look like and do in the recirculating line when I pull it off the nipple on the side of the engine when its running and how should the engine react to that being pulled off? Should there be a LOT of fuel in it? I am suspecting more and more that the recirculating system (or the fuel system in general somehow) is causing this problem...could you explain exactly what its supposed to do and how it works?

Could the crank case seal also be causing air leaks and be an issue where I am spraying the carb cleaner?

Does anyone know a good psychiatrist? this engine is making me crazy!!

I would gladly pull this thing off and reseal the whole thing if I knew it would fix the issue...I'm just not even sure that would help.

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

The "arrow" bolt...... spraying anything there shouldn't have any effect on the engine's rpm either UNLESS that bolt is loose OR the crankcase halves aren't sealed properly with either GelSeal or LocTite 518 which is basically the same substance.

Should there be leakage in either area, it should be obvious as crankcase pressure would be forcing the mixture out (oily mess!).

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

every answer you give makes me think of 10 more questions! ;-)

I dont see anything coming out anywhere...underneath in the previous picture it looks clean at the split too...could the o ring in the bearing case on the bottom cause an issue? Could the crank case seal just "go bad" over time?

I would really like to know where I can learn more about the fuel system..
The recirculating system specifically.. got any info?

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Ok...so I was probing around some more today..

Took pictures of the fuel...One is the clean fuel I am using...the other is whats coming out of the recirculating line when I pull it off the crank case nipple and let it run into the cup.. This is why I asked about the water flow on this engine...to me, it looks like water is getting in there some how..where could it be coming from? It doesnt appear to be getting TO the plugs/cylinder as they look like normal, but wet with fuel, plugs...

There is certainly an issue with that bolt/case at the arrow as I can stall the engine when I spray carb cleaner directly on that bolt head...it doesnt seem to have much effect when I spray around other areas near it or the whole side of the crank case halves...

I see a powerhead coming off again in my near future????

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

The fuel/water question...... water will not mix with gasoline or oil. If left sitting for any length of time, the water will separate and become clear again, settling to the bottom as it is the heaviest of the three liquids. I can't tell if that seperation exists in the photos.

The appearance would be somewhat different due to the fact that it has been subject to carbon, combustion, etc.

That bolt thing is a complete mystery to me.... never heard of such a thing. Why would spraying anything on a bolt head have any effect on a engine? That spray has go to be gaining access to the interior of the crankcase somehow. I'm at a complete loss on that bolt problem.

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

after siting for most of the day this is what it looks like...hard to see in the pictures but there is definitely a milky film at the bottom of the jar..Where in the world could water enter the system? I ran it with a tee fitting in the line to see how it was coming out of the fuel pump. Its clean as it heads to the carbs, clean when I drained the carbs. Only place it comes out like that is the recirculating hose...

I was starting to wonder if I am thinking backwards about it...maybe somewhere the fuel system is just dumping excess fuel into the EXHAUST area? Have you ever seen so much gook come out of the prop area? Thats after about 10 minutes running..

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

That solution in your hand...... no, I've never encountered anything like that.

Water could enter the engine via failing gaskets via the exhaust baffle area of via the head gaskets, also via the powerhead base gasket, BUT normally if this was the case, water would show up in the cylinders and on the spark plugs.

However, since what appears to be water shows up only after being expelled from the recirculating valves.... if it is water.... it would be originating within the crankcase area (my line of thought).

Frankly, if it were me, I'd be tearing that powerhead completely down and inspecting every inch of it carefully starting with the exhaust baffle plate and gaskets, then on to the head gaskets and head/block sealing surfaces..... then everything else.

In the past, back around 1988/89, a fellow mechanic that I worked with ran into two engines within a six month period that had internal crankcase water leakage problems...... porous metal (one), and a small hole in the other (factory flaw).

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

thats what I was thinking too.... I'm not an expert but have some experience, tear it apart and look at everything with a microscope.....

I suppose a $100 gasket kit is worth it at this point...

I just hope I find something

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

how did they find it was porous metal and one with a slight hole? Were they able to see it visually?

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

I really don't recall exactly but I think that was the case..... looking into the water jacket and water passage areas while using a bright light on the other side. Seems to me that he was also using a hand held propane blow torch to heat/expand the metal.

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

Ok..here it is..the tear down...I'm not sure what to make of it...Nothing jumped out at me and said "I'm Broken" but there are signs here and there...I can see the same gook in the upper, starboard side of the exhaust...

The only thing I see on the the crank case in the circled areas...one side is completely dry, the other is pooled with fuel...dont know what to make of that...
the front half has an obvious seal around it...the other side not so much...


The one cylinder head seems to show a slight bit looking like there could have been a little water in it?

What else would you be looking at or need to see pictures of? I didnt cclean anything yet or do anything but the exploration surgery...

Re: 1984 115 Johnson Rough Idle - Oil Discharge

I have to step out for awhile but wanted to get this reply in first.

That cylinder head gasket.... at the extreme bottom portion of it. Is that a break in the metal sealing ring? If so, therein most likely lies your problem. That would allow water to enter that cylinder and backtrack to the crankcase area. However, that should have resulted in a lower compression reading than the other cylinders and water should have shown up on the spark plug.