My Manifold and Riser

I started this thread cause it has to do with the manifolds on the engine we are rfeplacing . We bought a long block and swapped oil pans with my old engine as the new engine oil pan had no windage tray and the new pan had the dip stick going through the block. We swapped in the old pan which had the dip stick in the pan, was on the correct side and has a custom fitting on the bottom for ease of removing oil using a 12V engine room mounted pump. The block was not machined for a mecahanical pump so we are going with an electric pump and all the safety features..no big deal to install.

This first photo os one of my manifold on the driveway with the riser not connected.(bolts are removed
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The second photo is the main manifold standing on its end. Of note is the fact that a piece of gasket is over one of the ports and the other note is that there appears to be a piece of metal in a different port. I am not sure if that metal is part of the casting or a piece of solid rust...comments are welcome .

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The last photo is that of the channels in the riser end and as you can see they have to be cleaned.((sorry/blurry photo//forgot to set macro)) I think because of the gasket over the port and possibly that piece of rust/metal in the channel of the main manifold ............that particular exhaust would sometimes steam and seem to spit the water out instead of flowing like the other three exhausts although I never encountered or even came close to engine overheating.

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You comments are welcome and if you can direct me to a place for replacement gaskets it would be appreciate...it has been a long hard day and as of yet I have not snooped on the INet.

1991 Crusader 350CID
Manifold number 97753
Riser Number 98068

Need gaskets for riser to manifold........oh yes, I was asked to ask you experts...will high heat silicone do instead of a gasdket !!???

Thanks for your time

bad post Don...try again!

(might try the new reply button vs the quick reply button)

makomark said:

bad post Don...try again!

(might try the new reply button vs the quick reply button)

Click to expand...

Redone..sorry I was testing out attaching a photo from my camera.:rolleyes:

I have been on the INet and see that the riser/elbow has been replaced with an elbow/riser # 8068 vs the Crusader number of 98068.

I also see that the required gasket is number 6562 but what has me confused is the fact that this gasket only has one hole for the water to flow through and there are 4 channels/ports for the water both in the manifold and the riser.

Comments please..

OK...sorta fun having a conversation with myself

Anyhow..I have the answer.....the gasket I need to go between the manifold exit and the elbow intake is the ONE hole gasket .

The part number is 6562...which replaces the old Crusader number of 96562

View attachment 421.

( I called a couple of authorized parts guys at different shops in the US and they all agreed the one hole gasket is what I need in this case as it ensures the manifold stays full and there are no hot spots.)

Don:

First let me preface this withe the fact I don't have any crusader SBC first hand experience that is recent.

I guess with the gasket puzzle solved, some of the riser puzzle is done too.

As far as the "metal/rust in the slots" - there has to be a couple of interconnecting 'joints' between the 'outer case' and the inner 'case'. without those, the water would mix with the exhaust and the rest would be history. We also know that casting is not an exact process. I'd bet what you are seeing are the joints.

As far as cleaning them - easiest way is to take to the radiator shop and ask them to boil them out (acid dip them). Anything that remains should be significant and tight.

I'd suspect the elbows will be in the worst shape, especially around the water exit ports. they may boil out fine; if any flaking is present, replacement won't be too far out.

As far as sources, they shouldn't be too hard to find in the aftermarket; the OEM will come from a dealer. I'm sure our host, Andrew, can get them from Sierra for you....Al may have a few spares, too.
As far as the gaskets go, i know of nobody that omits them. Diver Dave swears by the ultra copper RTV, applied very thinly, to each side. If you need the gasket pictorial, I've posted it a few times and can email if necessary. The only wrinkle there is the FWC vs RWC.

Hi Mark,
You are correct about the joints between the water case and the exhaust pipe.. I did order the gaskets through our marina and they are from Sierra, (CDN distributor). The elbows cleaned up very nicely and after puting a hose to the ports I have found the water flow to be just excellent.

I was reading that "they" reccommend that the gaskets be applied "dry" and that is what I will insist the mechanic does. ASpparently puting silicone anywhere near a gasket is not a good thing.

If all goes well, we should have the motor up and running, in the boat by Monday..

One question>>>>>>>>>>> Many fellows I have talked to about the "restart" feel that I should put an additive in the oil for the break-in.... apparently to protect the cam and the lifters. Your advice would be appreciated and /or any specifics (Brand etc) if I should do that. Initially I thought 5-30 would be a good starting oil.

DK

You shouldn't need any additives, just good oil. As far as the need to break in the cam...depends upon the cam. You have a newer block and if the whole thing is new, it should have roller lifters riding on a roller cam. They don't require the same actions a flat tappet cam does. Best to check with whoever you got the engine from.

They should also give you an initial oil change time....5-10 maybe, but no more than 25 hours. They should also give you the breakin routine.....vary rpm, keep it in this range, that kind of stuff. (They should be able to recite it verbatim as most put in into the warranty statement with the "if you don't follow these directions, no warranty" disclaimer.)

(They should be able to recite it verbatim as most put in into the warranty statement with the "if you don't follow these directions, no warranty" disclaimer.)

That is my next stop....to find out all I can about the inner workings of the new engine. Thanks for the advice.

DK

Don't confuse (as I once did) a core removal hole in a cast part for a water passage. The sand cores needed to make a cast iron part hollow have to be removed from a hole somewhere, and that's what most holes at gasket mating surfaces are for--not for water flow.

Jeff

Don, I don't know enough about your manifolds to offer any good suggestions, but I think you are covered.

As for engine break-in...... Yes.... this will be important to learn whether you have a flat tappet type camshaft, or a roller cam follower system.
If F/T's, then you must follow protocol by NOT allowing the PRM to drop below 1,800 or so for the first 15/20 minutes..... and it need NOT be all in one running!
The important part is to keep the "Splash" lubrication at it's maximum.
If roller type cam/followers, then the above is moot!

Don, not that you asked...... but if you have not yet set your rocker arm clearances, I'd strongly encourage you to do the 8 stop method. Many shops tend to use the 4 stop method under the guise that the owner will be going back through them.
Take your time....., do the 8 stop...., and you won't have to go back through them dynamically later on.

.

fastjeff said:

Don't confuse (as I once did) a core removal hole in a cast part for a water passage. The sand cores needed to make a cast iron part hollow have to be removed from a hole somewhere, and that's what most holes at gasket mating surfaces are for--not for water flow.

Jeff

Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff....I really looked those holes over and I can see what you are saying. Never have done any casting.....this experience is certainly enlightening !!

RicardoMarine said:

Don, I don't know enough about your manifolds to offer any good suggestions, but I think you are covered.

As for engine break-in...... Yes.... this will be important to learn whether you have a flat tappet type camshaft, or a roller cam follower system.
If F/T's, then you must follow protocol by NOT allowing the PRM to drop below 1,800 or so for the first 15/20 minutes..... and it need NOT be all in one running!
The important part is to keep the "Splash" lubrication at it's maximum.
If roller type cam/followers, then the above is moot!

Don, not that you asked...... but if you have not yet set your rocker arm clearances, I'd strongly encourage you to do the 8 stop method. Many shops tend to use the 4 stop method under the guise that the owner will be going back through them.
Take your time....., do the 8 stop...., and you won't have to go back through them dynamically later on.

.

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As well, thank you Rick..... It would appear that I do not have a roller cam but my mechanic said that all the internal journals have been pre-lubed however he did mention just about the same thing as you posted about the run times to "soak" everything......as well I have the warranty document on its way to me, (it will be here prior to engine start) and I understand that the breakin procedure must be adhered to as written in the document to maintain the validity of the warranty.


Again, I think all that you, and others, have posted is in that document.

I copied and pasted your rocker arm clearance remarks and sent them to my mechanic, via email.

Should be in the boat, Monday and running either Monday evening or Tuesday morning. I will post a photo of the longblock....before all the gizmos are added and after the gizmos are added.

Thanks again

willow said:

............

1. however he did mention just about the same thing as you posted about the run times to "soak" everything......as well I have the warranty document on its way to me, (it will be here prior to engine start) and I understand that the breakin procedure must be adhered to as written in the document to maintain the validity of the warranty.
2. I copied and pasted your rocker arm clearance remarks and sent them to my mechanic, via email.

Click to expand...

1. We soak beans and rice! The cam followers/cam lobes need this splash lube, and is why the RPM is held higher for this short duration. Any assembly lube is wiped clean in short order.
2. Well, some foo foo this 8 stop method, and believe that the 4 stop is just as accurate. It does save a few steps, but I'd argue the point that the 4 stop is as accurate! But let's see what he says!

This is hard to believe...............

I was out of town, delivering my old block to the marine supplier, (two hours away), where we got the new "longblock", when I got a call from my mechanic.

He said he sent the manifolds to a reputable rad shop to have them pressure tested and apparently they both failed !!!! Just what I needed, have to buy two new manifolds and elbows !!!

On the drive back to my mechanic I started to wonder how BOTH manifolds could fail the pressure test. I arrived at my mechanics place and the rad shop had just returned both manifolds to his shop. I looked at the manifolds and again wondered how they could fail when in reality they had nothing to do with my engine problem.....(leakage etc)

Anyhow I went to the rad shop and asked the old fella that had apparently done many a pressure check on manifolds and asked him how he did the check.

"Simple", he said, " I seal up the exhaust end and pump in air where the raw water would normally enter.....after I am set up I submerge the manifolds in a tank and apply air. In your case both manifolds show heavy leakage".

To make a long story short, it was a long dialogue attempting to convince the guy that if he applied air where the water normally enters, after sealing up the exhaust, the air would come out the 4 entry ports on the manifold where the hot exhaust enters the manifold from the block...... He seemed to have a hard time grasping the fact that the exhaust mixed with water just before it exited the elbow !!

I went back and got a manifold, took the elbow off and showed him where the exhaust mixed with the water...finally convinced him !!!!

Anyhow..both manifolds are OK... makes me wonder how many manifolds were purchased by other boaters after his "pressure test technique" when 'perhaps' there was nothing wrong with them...:rolleyes:

There's no lack of incompetence out there! Smart move to check what was said instead of blind acceptance.

Jeff

And THAT is why we should have our work performed by qualified machine shops who's owner and/or employees own, operate and have boating experience... and these shops ONLY...... Period!
And this goes for engine parts selection, casting selections, machining and assembly as well!

I hear of this all too often!

Good catch on your part!

That's why some of us have made our own blockoff plates.

Mark, I am not familiar with this particular manifold, but I'll take your word on that.
Even while I'm not familiar with this one, how on earth could the guy have not seen this?
Would this have been an easy mistake to have made?

Wasn't there so can only speculate....I'd be inclined to label it ignorance.

Easy to make...depends upon the background of the individuals.

I prefer the DIY approach as I am the only one to blame if things aren't right. Sometimes, you just have to go hire somebody. Let me tell you, based on my limited need for doing this, true professionals are out there but, unfortunately, are not the norm.

Motor went in at 7:30am, everything attached by 9:00am and was run for about 30 minutes at varying RPM. Runs very smooth, and with those "straight thru" pipes sounds like a true sister to the Stbd engine !!


My thanks to all of you who so willingly gave your advice and time to post answers to my questions......needless to say I have learned much through this forum, not just because of my problems, but because of the vast amount of information so freely given on so many topics by those that invariably have "been there-done that"............


Have a great summer !!!

Sounds like you can order your tee shirt now!

Don't forget to get the Admiral one, too.

Yeh, Gonna do that !!!!

Once we get settled on the boat I will post some photos of the lift in of the "new engine"..

Hey Don,

Glad to read this one...! Enjoy.

Mark,

Well put in too many ways...launched today...all went well, blame me

Al:

May you have several years without the opportunity of visiting your damper plates!

I trust the FB re-wire is fully functioning?

From Bilge to Bridge....Wiring is in...And THANK YOU for those wishes.

I will admit, it was a PITA hauling the boat and then the engine and trans however it was not a very complex job at all. Dave had suggested back then that it would take all of 20 minutes to replace the damper AND that was really all it took. It was the other 2 days of putting it all back in that REALLY sucked. All that stuff is just so heavy. . .even on the ground with NORMAL footing