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Tips for removing pds

jcampbell

Regular Contributor
I got the 2 big snap rings out for the PDS on my 270 drive 4cyl engine. However after falling a couple times and some scrapped knuckles i cant get the shaft to budge. Any methods for attaching a slide hammer or something to this or some other method of removal???

I decided to start a new post instead of continuing my other one..
 
A giant vice-grip pliers may do it.... not sure. Any nicks to the splines can be addressed later. Usually, a non-issue!

If the pilot nose is rusted into the crankshaft bearing and/or the splines in the drive coupler, it can be a real bugger!

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A giant vice-grip pliers may do it.... not sure. Any nicks to the splines can be addressed later. Usually, a non-issue!

If the pilot nose is rusted into the crankshaft bearing and/or the splines in the drive coupler, it can be a real bugger!

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It is a bugger, i pb blasted the heck out of it and i cant even get it to jiggle. I have some pretty good size vise grips on it and cant even get it to budge. I might try a slide hammer that hooks up to the vise-grips. Otherwise im stripping the threads on the vise grips without any damage to the drive shaft.

If i got this right ideally you would remove two large snap rings you leave the small one on it. And get some grips and it should come loose?

Its a 1985 (built in late 1984) bayliner capri with a volvopenta AQ125A engine with either a 270 or 275 leg
 
............
I might try a slide hammer that hooks up to the vise-grips. Otherwise im stripping the threads on the vise grips without any damage to the drive shaft.

If i got this right ideally you would remove two large snap rings you leave the small one on it. And get some grips and it should come loose?
That is correct!
Yours will have a single bearing on the PDS, so it will come out AFT...... it's just a matter of over-coming friction, corrosion, any rust at/on the B/W splines and/or the pilot nose where it enters the crankshaft bearing.
IOW's, it can be a frick'n nightmare if all the wrong things go wrong!:eek:
(is that right.... "all wrong things go wrong?" Hmmmm. :rolleyes:)

Try shocking it FWD some........ brass hammer or ???? You won't hurt the PDS. It's pretty dang tough! Just enough to shock it from any rust, etc.
Take a steel drift punch, and gently tap on the bearing. Anything to shock it some.

You sure that you have the foward-most large snap ring out? (hey, I had to ask!)

Interestly enough, some of the other companies that used Volvo Penta under their name, would use their own PDS and a Borg Warner/Volvo Penta adapter housing.
These would be companies like; Eaton, Glastron, Holman Moody, Donzi, and a few more.
Some would have internally threaded PDS's right at the aft-most end.

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Yes i have 2 large snap rings out, the one next to the bearing was a pain but i took your suggestion and bent the needle nose tips inward a bit and it came out quickly.


The aft end of the drive shaft does have a hole in it but i am not sure if it is threaded or not i would have to look at it. Gonna stop at the tool rental place and look into renting a slide hammer if it has the adapter to connect to the vise grips as a last resort for some outward shock.


1st boat that very thought woke me up at 6.30 this morning :D. I hope it does come out with it.
 
jcampbell, the Volvo Penta PDSs will not be threaded..... that was the point in my telling about the Eaton, Glastron, Donzi, Holman Moody..... some of them were threaded, but none of the OEM Volvo Penta to my knowledge....., unless some of the very early ones were.

As for the bearing/PDS..... the bearing stops against a shoulder on the PDS! It is retained via the small snap ring that you can see from AFT.
So it has NO choice but to come out with the PDS........ unless like the one gentleman (aka 1stboat), who's PDS bearing had disintegrated.
He is still working on removing the outer race from within the bore of his Flywheel Cover!
His inner race came out with the shaft!
What was left of the balls and ball cage...... who knows where they went!
Not sure if he recovered all of them!


We need to get in the habbit of storing our drives fully down and straight forward. This prolongs the life of the drive shaft bellows, and reduces the likelyhood of premature failure, of which eventually leads to the issues that make this PDS so difficult to remove! That, and just plain routine replacement of these bellows and greasing of the PDS bearing(s).

The guys with the V-8's often suffer much worse damage when these go while up on plane, and making a turn.
These guys end up with a flywheel cover with no bellows snout!:eek:
The PDS takes out the universal shaft.
The universal shaft wobbles at high speed, and the entire assembly takes out the aft end of the flywheel cover.
Worst case, it also takes out the front of the transmission. :(
I know this, because I have repaired these for people!
Engine comes out, drive off, drive repair, new/used F/C, new PDS/bearings/seals, engine back in......
Be still for a moment, and you can hear the sound of this; Ca Ching! $$$$$$$$$
Yeah, that sound!

All because of routine maintenace that became deferred! :mad:

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I always store the drive in the downward posistion during layups. The bellows just rotted out with age and i didnt catch it on my last trip out. If anything this has taught me to pull that trans off every season and grease the bearing crosses. And hit that zirk on top of the flywheel cover too with grease :)

on the plus side i have a better understanding of how that upper section works and how it comes apart. Oh and the bearing crosses that were installed were sealed ones no grease zirks, from what the neighbor said they were dry as a bone.

Funny though, the drive was as quiet as can be with no noise indicating anything awry in there. No grinding at turns or anything..... Atleast i enjoy doing this kind of stuff.

Thanks for all your helps i'll post back if i need any more assistance..
 
jcampbell, the Volvo Penta PDSs will not be threaded..... that was the point in my telling about the Eaton, Glastron, Donzi, Holman Moody..... some of them were threaded, but none of the OEM Volvo Penta to my knowledge....., unless some of the very early ones were.

As for the bearing/PDS..... the bearing stops against a shoulder on the PDS! It is retained via the small snap ring that you can see from AFT.
So it has NO choice but to come out with the PDS........ unless like the one gentleman (aka 1stboat), who's PDS bearing had disintegrated.
He is still working on removing the outer race from within the bore of his Flywheel Cover!
His inner race came out with the shaft!
What was left of the balls and ball cage...... who knows where they went!
Not sure if he recovered all of them!


We need to get in the habbit of storing our drives fully down and straight forward. This prolongs the life of the drive shaft bellows, and reduces the likelyhood of premature failure, of which eventually leads to the issues that make this PDS so difficult to remove! That, and just plain routine replacement of these bellows and greasing of the PDS bearing(s).

The guys with the V-8's often suffer much worse damage when these go while up on plane, and making a turn.
These guys end up with a flywheel cover with no bellows snout!:eek:
The PDS takes out the universal shaft.
The universal shaft wobbles at high speed, and the entire assembly takes out the aft end of the flywheel cover.
Worst case, it also takes out the front of the transmission. :(
I know this, because I have repaired these for people!
Engine comes out, drive off, drive repair, new/used F/C, new PDS/bearings/seals, engine back in......
Be still for a moment, and you can hear the sound of this; Ca Ching! $$$$$$$$$
Yeah, that sound!

All because of routine maintenace that became deferred! :mad:

.

I love non-maintenace VP owners and always have but I really like it when they come under MY wing and never have a CA Ching problem again by doing what I suggest. I'd rather service a long time customers boat than tell him he needs to spend 1k-2k on it.
 
So it has NO choice but to come out with the PDS........ unless like the one gentleman (aka 1stboat), who's PDS bearing had disintegrated.
He is still working on removing the outer race from within the bore of his Flywheel Cover!
His inner race came out with the shaft!
What was left of the balls and ball cage...... who knows where they went!
Not sure if he recovered all of them!

I didn't find the rest of them, I did however finally get the outer race out today.

Also, +1 on Jcampbell's statement regarding knowing more about the drive on my boat and how it goes together; or more importantly on how it comes apart.
 
YAY i got the PDS out, just had to overcome the corrosion in there.

Now the tiny bearing waaayyy in there is that only replaceable by engine removal i assume. How does that get lubed?

It wasnt rusted out or anything, looked really clean in there, fwd end of the drive shaft had no rust on it. The bearing on the other hand :rolleyes:, well lets just say i owe rick a beverage of some sort.
I feel extremely lucky i got this in time before a catastrophic failure. And the whole time i used this it made no loud noises grinding or anything, it was quiet as other boats i been in so i think the breach and failure were recent.

Besides cleaning the inside a bit with some wire brushes anything else i need to do. I got some u-joint/gimbal grease to put in.
 
Yes appears were both at the same step in the game, cleanup and re-assembly. How did you get your FWD seal out. I cant remember if i have to remove the engine to get it out or if i can install it from the aft end. I never got a size on it so i didn't order one. what grease are you using? or is yours sealed? You'll have to let me know his drink, I owe my neighbor some good dark beer for doing the transmission
 
Yes appears were both at the same step in the game, cleanup and re-assembly. How did you get your FWD seal out. I cant remember if i have to remove the engine to get it out or if i can install it from the aft end. I never got a size on it so i didn't order one. what grease are you using? or is yours sealed? You'll have to let me know his drink, I owe my neighbor some good dark beer for doing the transmission

I used a hooked seal puller to the the fwd seal out. I'm sure you can use anything that's long enough to reach it. It came out pretty easy. Don't worry you don't have to pull the engine out.

Regular automotive grease should be fine because that area should not see water ( if I remember what Rick posted correctly).
 
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Now the tiny bearing waaayyy in there is that only replaceable by engine removal i assume. How does that get lubed?

It wasnt rusted out or anything, looked really clean in there, fwd end of the drive shaft had no rust on it. The bearing on the other hand :rolleyes:, well lets just say i owe rick a beverage of some sort.
I feel extremely lucky i got this in time before a catastrophic failure. And the whole time i used this it made no loud noises grinding or anything, it was quiet as other boats i been in so i think the breach and failure were recent.

Besides cleaning the inside a bit with some wire brushes anything else i need to do. I got some u-joint/gimbal grease to put in.
The FWD bearing in the end of the OHC 4 cylinder crankshaft is a Volvo carry-over from the autos...... it could serve just as well if it were a brass bushing, as nothing rotates within it...... it is a "Centering" device ONLY.
Just make sure that you grease the pilot nose and Borg Warner splines prior to re-installation for future rust protection!
If these should rust, then we have an entirely differnt topic to discuss!


How did you get your FWD seal out. I cant remember if i have to remove the engine to get it out or if i can install it from the aft end. I never got a size on it so i didn't order one. what grease are you using? or is yours sealed? You'll have to let me know his drink, I owe my neighbor some good dark beer for doing the transmission
Ouch! :mad: Do Not remove the FWD most seal!
You have ZERO access to install a new one if not removing the engine!
If you have lost the FWD most seal, you now have nothing to force future grease through the PDS "Open" Bearing! (the grease will simply blow out the front)
You will then need to install a "Sealed" bearing (not an open bearing), and forgo any future greasing via the Zirk fitting.
This is NOT a deal breaker, per se', but it does require changing this PDS bearing more frequently now.
But hey........ you're a pro at it now!


If the FWD most seal is OK, then you will want to "Pre-Fill" this grease cavity prior to installing the AFT-most new seal.
Bump the engine over while you do the Pre-Fill so that all air can be purged.
ONLY when you see new grease come through the "Ball Cage" will you install the aft-most seal.


Wella...... you're ready to install bellows/drive, etc.


Any good Tequilla works....... But the thanks you give me is enough! :D

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Ouch! :mad: Do Not remove the FWD most seal!
You have ZERO access to install a new one if not removing the engine!
If you have lost the FWD most seal, you now have nothing to force future grease through the PDS "Open" Bearing! (the grease will simply blow out the front)
You will then need to install a "Sealed" bearing (not an open bearing), and forgo any future greasing via the Zirk fitting.
This is NOT a deal breaker, per se', but it does require changing this PDS bearing more frequently now.
But hey........ you're a pro at it now!


If the FWD most seal is OK, then you will want to "Pre-Fill" this grease cavity prior to installing the AFT-most new seal.
Bump the engine over while you do the Pre-Fill so that all air can be purged.
ONLY when you see new grease come through the "Ball Cage" will you install the aft-most seal.

... oops. Mine came out quite easily and accidentaly too I might add. It happened when I was getting the outer bearing race out.(I'm talking about #3 in the diagram). http://www.volvopentastore.com/Dp-F...--store_id.366--view_id.311949--viewcart.long
 
... oops. Mine came out quite easily and accidentaly too I might add. It happened when I was getting the outer bearing race out.(I'm talking about #3 in the diagram). http://www.volvopentastore.com/Dp-F...--store_id.366--view_id.311949--viewcart.long


Well, you are in luck because your system is a sealed bearing anyway.

12121.jpg
 
I just put it in aft and there's a (shoulder, ledge) what ever its called that stops it from falling into the flywheel cavity.

Is that where I start filling it with grease? And do I fill as much as will fit then put in the PDS and then add more grease then start the engine to get the air bubbles out. Also, on regular wheel bearings I usually fill the races by hand, but this might be a bit different. Or do I do it the same way?

Do I put in there by hand or use some sort of grease gun?

I know I'm also suppose to grease the pilot nose and the threads just aft of that, from your previous post.
 
Ed, if your flywheel cover does NOT have a grease zirk in it for pds bearing lube..... Then you cannot use this bearing!

The only time that we can use an open bearing, is when we have porting for grease and seals fwd and aft of the bearing(s)!
Otherwise, this must be a sealed bearing!

I thought that we covered this when determining you engine model!


Edit: I have a new F/C like yours in my shop.
I just looked at it..... the FWD seal is accessible from AFT!
Still a rather moot point since there is no grease port in this F/C!
Bearing must be "sealed"!
 
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Hey Rick, I've never seen a flywheel housing without a zerk and to add to that I've never seen a sheilded bearing in the housing either!!! Maybe I haven't seen any newer ones but all thru the late 70's-93 I've seen had the zerk with an open bearing. I was biting my tongue on the seal issue about it comming out the arse end. I'd like to see someone put the FRONT seal in a 4cyl. casing from the front, they'd be a magician. What the heck, you've just done way to many V8's.
 
Well good thing i didnt remove the fwd seal it looks in good shape too. Gonna pump some grease into the cavity to make sure it will still grease in there then do what rick said and hopefully get the trans mounted today since i have another hand to help me. Then i can work on the engine.....
 
Hey Rick, I've never seen a flywheel housing without a zerk and to add to that I've never seen a sheilded bearing in the housing either!!! Maybe I haven't seen any newer ones but all thru the late 70's-93 I've seen had the zerk with an open bearing. I was biting my tongue on the seal issue about it comming out the arse end. I'd like to see someone put the FRONT seal in a 4cyl. casing from the front, they'd be a magician. What the heck, you've just done way to many V8's.
Gary, This thread can be confusing since we have two members involved....., and who both have quite different set-ups!
One OHC 4.... and one 5.7L GI.
However, both use the single bearing.

**Ed's is a 1994 5.7 GI-PMDA w/ duo-prop.
He tore a hole in his bellows and posted "Drive makes a grinding noise when turning?! "
His single PDS bearing was all but gone..... he literally removed it in pieces!
His F/C (as shown in the 5.7 GI-PMDA schematic) uses a single, non-serviceable bearing.... NO Grease Zirk in Flywheel Cover!
I just happen to have a new one in my shop..... Yep, NO Grease Zirk.... And to top that off, the FWD seal can come out AFT!
This PDS also has a pilot nose like the Fords and OHC 4's.

**jcampbell's is a OHC 4, single PDS bearing, and IS Serviceable.... (i.e., Grease fitting in F/C)
Requires OPEN Bearing ONLY!
His will also have a pilot nose on the PDS.

Both use B/W coupler splines!

So we've sortta got two different but similar scenarios going on here! :eek:


It doesn't look like it. It looks like the old one. It has an inner and outer race and a ball bearing cage.
Ed, your previous bearing would have also had an Outer and Inner race with a Ball Cage. It was perhaps so distorted and destroyed, that you did not notice.

Well good thing i didnt remove the fwd seal it looks in good shape too. Gonna pump some grease into the cavity to make sure it will still grease in there then do what rick said and hopefully get the trans mounted today since i have another hand to help me. Then i can work on the engine.....
Yes....... just make sure that you rotate the engine while you grease it.... make sure grease come through the ball cage.

(If you don't, you won't know how many pumps it will take in the future before grease gets to/through the bearing.)

:D
 
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Bearing tapped onto the drive shaft, b/w splines greased. Didn't take much effort to get into the housing, few taps of the rubber hammer and it slid home, i cant spin the drive shaft so i hope it went into the flywheel thing line up ok and not wedge in there. Got the big inner snap ring in next to the bearing then it decides to rain :rolleyes: Already got the grease gun loaded with u-joint/gimbal grease to pump the cavity.

Hope the bearing is mounted on the drive shaft straight and not slightly crooked, (though if it was it probably wouldn't have went in at all into the b/w splines

Next:
Mount new water snout attach hose

seal/fix the corrosion on the f/w cover snout, not very much still over 1 inch before bellows lip.

Patch chip in transom sheiled where the drive lifting leg is exposed.

Put bellows on with new clamps and this side up

Grease splines

lil bit of permatex aviation gasket sealer on mating surface

attach drive

Grease nuts and bolts and tight accordingly

add oil to drive.

tune engine, replacing timing belt, change oil. replace alternator belt

reattach prop and go fishing if all goes right. :)

Oh and grease trailer bearings.
 
jcampbell, if the PDS went in all the way, you are good to go!
It can't help but be correct if it went this far in! :)
And Correct..... you will not be able to turn it.

Be sure to NOT use any Automotive Never-Sieze or Anti-Seize products on your drive unit nuts/bolts/fasteners.

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Yes,
It was good to hear the engine turn over even though i prevented it from firing by removing the coil wire.

To help with the rot on the end of the snout on the F/W cover i have this product called quick steel (i think) that you knead and apply it to the item and it hardens as hard as steel. I was wondering if i could put that on the corroded part or if i should use my marine grade silicon caulking?? There is about an inch at the worse part from the edge to the bellows lip. The skinniest part of the snout is about a 1/4 inch no rot at all between the edge and the bellows lip. Or should i just not worry about it.

As far as my bolts go i have either the grease i used for the bearing (Quick silver u-joint/gimbal grease) or i have some permatex # 3 aviation gasket stuff that i am going to put on the mating surfaces between the trans and the intermediate housing

Jason
 
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