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Drive makes a grinding noise when turning?!

1stboat

1stboat

Regular Contributor
I took the boat out today for the first time this year after doing the spring recommissioning. I drained the gear oil and didn't see any metal shavings in the oil. I put three liters of 75w-90 synthetic gear oil. when making turns today a friend sitting in the back noticed and grinding noise. I then had him drive and make turns while I listened. I sounds pretty bad. It makes it when turning both at low speed and high speed. It is worse at high speed than at low speed. When going straight, it does not make any noise at all. I'm going to buy more gear oil and put in through the fill hole on the back of the drive till it drips out to see if that's the issue. If that doesn't fix it, what else could it be?
 
Sounds like U-Joints or Gimble Bearing. If it only happens when turning it is most likely not the drive itself. Check your drive shaft boots to be sure they aren't torn.
 
Last year I got a hole in the drive bellows that I didn't take care of. I used the boat all last season with the hole in it. I've been reading every post on here that has similar symptoms to the one I'm experiencing and the u joints seems to be a likely cause. Either that or water ingress from the prop shaft seals. I don't think its coming from the prop shaft seals because last year I got the lower drive resealed.
 
Any hole in the drive bellows will introduce water into the area of the universal drive shaft..... this will take out the bearing crosses (U-joints)!

You do not mention which engine and/or drive this is.

If in the AQ series, and if single prop, you DO NOT use gear oil!
If in the AQ series, and if Duo Prop, you DO use GL 5 gear lube!
If in the AQ series, you will not have a Gimbal Bearing.... but rather a Primary Drive Shaft and related bearing or bearings (plural).
These too will have suffered from the water intrusion.

If SX or later, then you will have a Gimbal bearing that also may have suffered damage from the water intrusion.

You need to get yourself a Volvo Penta OEM manual for your engine/drive. Not Seloc.... not Clymers!
OEM is far better, IMO.

Post back with this engine/drive info! We can better help you from there.

.
 
I have a 1994 5.7 GI-PMDA. The outdrive is a duo-prop. I believe it is 280 or 290.

I do have a Seloc Manual, but not a Volvo one as recommended. There are several here; http://www.volvopentastore.com/Work...on_id.124405160--store_id.366--view_id.357915, and don't which one I should get.

Last year when I got the hole in the bellows I did buy a new one, but didn't put it on because when I read through the seloc manual it looked like more than I can do myself.

Can I add more grease through the nipple on the top of the bellhousing ( I think that's what its called) to prevent further damage till I get the issue fixed?
 
If that is what you have, then you have what some of us consider the last of the AQ series drives. Your flywheel cover, as well as your PDS, will be this one.
The good part is.... this PDS will come out AFT, and the bearing can be fairly easily replaced.
However, that does not correct any universal shaft issues.
Be careful with the bearing box "bearing pre-load" when you pull the bearing box apart for bearing cross replacement!

12121.jpg
 
Replacing the drive boot is not all that much of a problem. Ricardo and I differ on the best way to do this... I advocate pulling the whole drive off, while Rickardo recommends just removing the transmission from the lower unit ( the top third of the drive itself). Replacing the bearings in the U joints is a bit more of a bother and probably best left to others. Any competent marine (or auto mechanic for that matter) can replace these.
 
This is not the type of thing that will have good results if I mess it up even a little, so I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and take it to my volvo mechanic. At least I will have peace of mind that my boat will have no issues for seasons to come.
 
On your particular drive, the bearing boxes generally come out easily. The bolts pose no real issues as do the earlier transmission bearing boxes.
The thing to concern yourself with will be the pre-load on the main drive gear bearings. It is not a difficult task if you approach it correctly.


As for the PDS bearing..... all you must do is reach in, punch the one seal out of your way..... remove two (2) large snap rings (this requires a unique pliers to reach/grab the snap ring eyelets) and then pull the PDS from the housing. (more later if you decide to do this)
The changing of this bearing is a cake walk..... and the bearing/seal will run you about $24 if you know how to purchase them!

You'll likely spend $1,500+ if you have a shop do this.
Here are some ball park prices for parts only:

PDS bearing/seal ............................................ $24
U-joint bearing crosses..................................... $65 ... if you know how to purchase these.
Main drive seal (Sierra brand)............................ $14
Main drive seal washer .................................... $45
OEM Shift mech seal........................................ $25
Misc OEM O-rings, top cap gasket, etc. ............. $35


I also provide this transmission service if you are not near a Volvo Penta shop who works on the AQ series drives..... if that should interest you!
Ship/repair/return!
 
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RicardoMarine said:
You need to get yourself a Volvo Penta OEM manual for your engine/drive. Not Seloc.... not Clymers!
OEM is far better, IMO.
Click to expand...

Hello Ricardo. I partially agree with you on this one. Over the years I have been using OEM, Seloc and Clymer, and on average I do like Seloc the most and (to put it politely) Clymer does have a lot of room for improvement. So for a DIY I would normally recommend Seloc/Clymer rather than OEM (a different story would be for a professional mechanic). My preference has nothing to do with Seloc being better or worse than the OEM, but rather because one manual covers a wide range of engines and drives and therefore it is much better priced. So far, I don't recall of an engine or drive job that I could not complete or undertake because of having Seloc and/or Clymer and not the OEM manual. :D
 
I got the estimate and DAMN! 1700 dollars to fix. Apparently I do have a gimbal bearing and its as rusty as can be. So is the yoke for that matter. The mechanic said the whole engine has to be taken out to take the bellhousing off. Once off there may be other issues that have to be taken care of too. What a great start to the boating season huh? He also said the nuts on the bellows side of the steering helmet should not be there and are the cause of the tear in the bellows. Is that right? As long as I've had the boat they been there.
 
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1stboat said:
I got the estimate and DAMN! 1700 dollars to fix. Apparently I do have a gimbal bearing and its as rusty as can be. So is the yoke for that matter. The mechanic said the whole engine has to be taken out to take the bellhousing off. Once off there may be other issues that have to be taken care of too. What a great start to the boating season huh? He also said the nuts on the bellows side of the steering helmet should not be there and are the cause of the tear in the bellows. Is that right? As long as I've had the boat they been there.
Click to expand...

OK, here's the real scoop for you.

YOU DO NOT have a Gimbal Bearing. There is NO Gimbal system to this drive.
What your so called mechanic is referring to, is a PDS..... Primary Drive Shaft and related bearing.... That's singular... ONE BEARING.... a PDS Bearing!

Look at post # 6 above and at the image.
Note that there is one bearing only, and that this shaft (while you may not know this) will come out the rear of the Flywheel Cover (not bell housing.... that is an automotive term).

Your mechanic is either inexperienced, or is attempting to make his next mortage payment from your needed service work.

He is also wrong on the nuts used for the Helmet shoulder bolts.

You'd best pick up a manual so you can educate yourself on this, and not be taken advantage of.

I've got to leave, or I'd type more... I'll check back later.

BTW, if you need this upper repaired, I do have people ship these to me all of the time.
I don't need the work, and I don't need to solicit work from this forum.... only offering as a suggestion to help you out.
 
So, this can be fixed without taking the whole engine out?

What about the rusty u-joints and yoke?

I don't mind shipping it out if it'll get done right and cheaper.

I'll be waiting for you to get back to me.
 
1stboat said:
  1. So, this can be fixed without taking the whole engine out?
  2. What about the rusty u-joints and yoke?
  3. I don't mind shipping it out if it'll get done right and cheaper.
Click to expand...

  1. Unless it is extremely corroded in place, yes! Two snap rings removed, and it should be free to come out... sometimes they are stubborn though.
  2. Those are done during the re-seal when the shaft yoke has been removed from the main drive gear.
  3. USPS flat rate box........ about $40 round trip.
 
I suppose its at least worth a shot. I'll go get my boat and give it a shot. What would I send you to repair?
 
1stboat said:
  1. I suppose its at least worth a shot. I'll go get my boat and give it a shot.
  2. What would I send you to repair?
Click to expand...
  1. Yes, why not? Unless you really fouled up, you couldn't do anything but get stuck, and need further help.
  2. Well, you want to install new bearing crosses (U-joints), correct? Maybe replace the transmission main drive seal and shift mechanism seal?
If you have experience with Hypoid Gear work and bearing pre-load/rolling torque values, you could do this yourself.
I suggest this because the shaft must be removed in order to change one seal.
If not, just make sure that you use someone who is qualified do this for you.

I believe that this shop that gave you the $1,700 quote, would not be a good candidate. Possibly based on an integrity issue alone.
If they do not know a Gimbal system from a Main Suspension Fork system, I'd have my doubts as to their qualifications. Especially after not informing you of this single bearing PDS and since they did not know it will come out AFT.
If they DID know this, yet wanted to remove your engine... (or at least quote you for this), there is an integrity issue.... correct?

I can understand a portion of this if they simply made a mistake....... the earlier double bearing PDS does require this.
Perhaps they did not do their homework on this one.... or you looked like you had a pocket full of cash! :D

Your call.... be glad to help you if need be.

BTW, I sent you a PM.... did you receive it?
If not, shoot me one if you care to.
 
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Well, I think you're jumping the gun here, unless there is more to your story.

This Double Bearing Flywheel Cover is of the same footprint as your single bearing flywheel cover.
The fwd Borg Warner splines are same!
It appears to be a fine spline for your aft transmission female yoke spline count. This would be the same.
IOW's, it should work so long as your engine is set up with the smaller 153 tooth flywheel!

!Br)cFRQBmk~$(KGrHqUH-DkEvF!9wN-zBL1JEH6KbQ~~_35.JPG


NOTE: I prefer this style because once the grease cavity is "pre-filled" (upon new bearing installation) you can lube these bearings in the future, whereas with your single "sealed bearing" flywheel cover, you cannot!

However, with your existing F/C, you can remove the PDS out the rear generally without removing the engine.
You cannot with the above double bearing unit. Engine must be removed!

I think that the key to this may be in how vigilant one will be re; servicing these bearings........
...... whether that means frequent lubrication intervals (as with the red one above) or simply periodic replacement (as with the type you have).

BTW, both F/C's use the same AFT bearing! It is just an extension to the p/n for the sealed version, vs the open version bearing.


.
 
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... I do have a tendency to jump the gun. Don't worry I wasn't planning to buy it. I just started looking for parts to get a rough estimate of what it would cost to buy the parts in the worst case scenario. So just because the the PDS bearing and the yokes/u-joints are rusted, are you thinking maybe one of the seals behind the PDS may have held and not allowed water to penetrate further?
 
1stboat said:
............
So just because the the PDS bearing and the yokes/u-joints are rusted, are you thinking maybe one of the seals behind the PDS may have held and not allowed water to penetrate further?
Click to expand...
It would not be "behind" the PDS.... it would be right at the PDS.
My answer: I highly doubt that this seal held water out.

Here's the rub, 1stboat;

If..... and I say if this PDS bearing is bad, it won't be too long before it fails completely!
Remember, this is a NON-Serviceable bearing, meaning that it is running on what little grease it held captive from the day it came off of the assembly line.
How many years do you think this has been since a replacement was made?

Secondly, if you have not seen, nor heard of, the damage that results from when this bearing fails, you should!

It is so easy to change this bearing in your system, that it would be a complete and direct shot in the foot if you did not change it now.

If you would like to see this, I'll see if I can dig up some photos of the resulting damage that this can cause.
Otherwise, you'll simply half to take my word on it..... and maybe the word of a few others here.

40+ years as an anal mechanic..... 20+ years with the Volvo Penta drives suggests to me, that I'd be changing this if it were my boat!

Please don't take this as though I'm being grummy with my delivery...... I do not mean to be! :D
It's just that this is simply so important, that I try to strongly emphasize it!
I'd hate to see any of us undergo the expense of a failure here.... of which can range from a broken F/C "bellows snout"....., ruined Universal Shaft...., to a broken front transmission collar....., and/or all three at the same time!

I'll leave you with this thought (and a wee bit of sarcasm):
PDS bearing primarily supports the aft end of this shaft.
This is the end whereby the Universal Drive Shaft connects.
PDS spins same rpm as engine.... in gear/neural... doesn't matter.
PDS bearings usually fail upon a cruise RPM and while making a mild turn (so I hear from those who have had total failure here!.... yeah, the same people who I end up repairing these for!) :rolleyes:
Imagine the effects of the weight and velocity occurring between PDS and Universal Drive Shaft during drive articulation @ let's say 3,000 - 3,400 rpm.

Again, 1stboat, please do not take this the wrong way, but may I remind you of your first post in this thread?:
1stboat said:
........... when making turns today a friend sitting in the back noticed and grinding noise. I then had him drive and make turns while I listened.
I sounds pretty bad. It makes it when turning both at low speed and high speed. It is worse at high speed than at low speed. When going straight, it does not make any noise at all. I'm going to buy more gear oil and put in through the fill hole on the back of the drive till it drips out to see if that's the issue. If that doesn't fix it, what else could it be?
Click to expand...

Need I say more?

Yours truly, the hard headed, overly obnoxious, please replace these, PDS NAZI, Ricardo. :)
 
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I didn't mean to imply that I wan't going to follow your MUCH appreciated advice. Like I posted earlier, I tend to over analyze things. Its the computer engineer in me. I suppose I should just wait to get the boat back and take things apart before I jump to assumptions.
 
Rick, What's going to be the trick to gripping the aft end of the drive shaft to pull it out.
If the side walls of the snout is rusted/corroded it would seem a lot of gripping/pulling force will be required to overcome the friction.
Any great tips on this? I did spend a few minuted drilling a spare shaft(to tap) and progress was slow (if any).
Thanks,
Mike
 
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Mike, you are correct.... rust scale on the aluminum bore can be an issue. Likewise, grabbing onto the shaft!
However, I have used a very large vice grip pliers before, and have been able to pull them out.

I do not believe that his PDS will be threaded either. I see the threaded ones on the very old PDS's only.

Here's the thing, all OHC 4's have the single bearing PDS.
Most of the time, these will come out aft w/ engine being left in!
The issue is the pilot nose being rusted into that silly crankshaft ball bearing that they use. The V-8 will use a bronze bushing!
 
I got the boat back from the shop today. Now its time to attempt the repair. I have more pictures to detail the problem. What should by my first step? I do have the seloc manual if there are instructions in there you'd like to point me to.
 
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I'm very curious about something!
Assuming that this is the same shop that had given you the quote, what did the shop say to you when you picked the boat up? Were you charged for diagnostics or ??????
Did they give you ALL shims that were underneath your transmission?

OK.... the surgical procedure:

**Clean grease and yuck away so you can see what you're doing.
**Sacrifice the seal and remove it (note the installation direction of this seal... it is correct.... and the new seal will be installed the same way)
**Remove two (2) large snap rings..... this is where the long needle nose pliers come into play!
**No need to remove the small snap ring yet.
**Now grab onto the PDS with a very large, good quality, Vice Grip type pliers.
**Do what you must to get the shaft to come out.

NOTE.... Things that may prevent removal;
*Corrosion in/on the aluminum bore (where the bearing fits)
*Rust at the Borg Warner spline (shaft/engine drive coupler)
*PDS pilot nose/crankshaft bronze bushing may be corroded.

Any small nicks/scratches to the fine splines (from the vice-grips) can be quickly addressed with a small file. Usually a non-issue if all goes well.

1stboat, my fingers are crossed for you..... most of these will come out without incident! Let's hope that yours is one of those.



None of my business here, but since your drive-shaft bellows were leaking, and since you have this rust stain inside there, I'd strongly encourage you to install a new main drive gear seal as well as new bearing crosses (see # 2, post # 15).
I'd also do a new shift-mech seal.
 
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They didn't say anything when I picked up the boat. Yes, I was charged a diagnostic charge. The transmission was off the boat and they did give me a bad with parts in it. I haven't looked in it so I don't know what parts are in it. The top of the drive (with the transmission removed) has a plastic bag taped to it to prevent water from entering the drive. I don't see how I'm suppose to take the PDS bearing off. Earlier I think you mentioned that it could be punched out. Do I just get a screw driver or something similar and wack it with a hammer?
 
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