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Drive makes a grinding noise when turning?!

Bob, he does not have a 280/290 series drive. I believe that he originally thought that he had a 280/290.... (see post # 5)
He has a 1994 5.7 GI-PMDA.


1stboat said:
They didn't say anything when I picked up the boat. Yes, I was charged a diagnostic charge. The transmission was off the boat and they did give me a bad with parts in it. I haven't looked in it so I don't know what parts are in it. The top of the drive (with the transmission removed) has a plastic bag taped to it to prevent water from entering the drive. I don't see how I'm suppose to take the PDS bearing off. Earlier I think you mentioned that it could be punched out. Do I just get a screw driver or something similar and wack it with a hammer?
Click to expand...
NO... NO hammer whacking! :eek:
You will NOT be taking the PDS Bearing off at first.
You must first remove the PDS as an assembly (PDS/bearing/small snap ring)
Look at the schematic again...... post # 6.
Look at the PDS and where the bearing is positioned on it.
The bearing is positioned on the PDS and locked in place with a small snap ring.
The PDS and Bearing as a UNIT fit into the bore of the Flywheel Cover.

The forward section fits into BOTH the Borg Warner coupler spines, and the PILOT NOSE into the crankshaft bushing.
(Unless corroded, you will not concern yourself with these)

There should be only ONE bearing on your 1994 5.7 GI-PMDA PDS.
Not two, if all is as you say re; engine model number, etc.

This means that the PDS (with bearing attached) will/should come out AFT.
No punching.... only PULLING!
(I may have suggested punching the seal out!)


Listen, any automotive type mechanic friend could very likely help you do this.
Just make sure that they have seen the schematic.
Maybe print this info out so he can read it.
Print out the schematic as well.

The only parts that will be coming out will be:
**One PDS with one bearing and small snap ring attached that you will not touch yet.... not until the PDS is on the bench.

See previous post # 27.... "the surgical procedure"
Once out, replacing the sealed bearing will be simple.
(do not install an Open bearing)

FYI; If I were you, I'd want to check the shimming of the transmission before final installation. I've seen this all too often where an owner did not receive ALL of his shims back. Shame on the shop if true.
Yes..... indeed a bummer!

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Am I correct that this system will also work on a 4 Cylinder 290 series also? I've been too chickin' to tackle mine...

Do you have a specific model of vise grips that you use? I can see that this can be the big fig newton - PDS grip - given the wall corrosion many may have on the snout perimeter.

I've seen puller kits (slide hammer style) that can thread into the end of a vise grip. This would seen like a great system - as long as you can get a GREAT grip on the PDS. Can't seem to find them on ebay at the moment.

Here's the theory.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Auto...m&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_100&hash=item563bf7711f

In fact if Rick Richardomarine wants to test drive this unit, I'll buy the round. Just pm me.
 
dazk14 said:
1. Am I correct that this system will also work on a 4 Cylinder 290 series also? I've been too chickin' to tackle mine...

2. Do you have a specific model of vise grips that you use? I can see that this can be the big fig newton - PDS grip - given the wall corrosion many may have on the snout perimeter.

3. I've seen puller kits (slide hammer style) that can thread into the end of a vise grip. This would seen like a great system - as long as you can get a GREAT grip on the PDS. Can't seem to find them on ebay at the moment.

Here's the theory.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Auto...m&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_100&hash=item563bf7711f

4. In fact if Rick Richardomarine wants to test drive this unit, I'll buy the round. Just pm me.
Click to expand...

1. Yes, all that I have worked on have been a single bearing.

2. By golly, you are correct! They are the big fig newton - PDS grip - How did you know?


3. That would work. I've not seen one!


4. :D
 
I attempted to take out the seal that comes before the ring clips, but I ran into a problem. The inner part of the seal came out fine but the outer part is still in there. Am I suppose to take the clamping ring off? I am about 99% positive that I have the engine I posted. I got the numbers off of the metal tag on the engine and looked up the model number on Volvo's website. I can post the tag info here if you'd like to double check.
 
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1stboat said:
I attempted to take out the seal that comes before the ring clips, but I ran into a problem. The inner part of the seal came out fine but the outer part is still in there. Am I suppose to take the clamping ring off? I am about 99% positive that I have the engine I posted. I got the numbers off of the metal tag on the engine and looked up the model number on Volvo's website. I can post the tag info here if you'd like to double check.
Click to expand...
There will be no clamping ring removal!
Just dig in there, destroy and remove the seal. You will not be reusing it.

Do save the snap rings, although these can be bought at NAPA.

I am open to the idea of a phone call if that would help you.
 
Thanks for offering me the ability to call you. Let me go at it with a razor and see if that'll help any.
 
1stboat, there will be a snap ring just foward of this seal that will look similar to this one.
Notice that it does not go full circle..... it leaves a space between the eyelets!
This space can be placed randomly.... so we don't know where it is.

snapring.jpg


Try to find the location of the space.
This is where you can drive the seal FWD (gently) until if folds/twists/bends some!
(a healthy screw driver usually does the trick!)
Once it folds/twists/bends some, the diameter gets smaller, and it will loose it's grip in the bore.
It should come out then.

Now you just have these two (2) snap rings to remove with the needle nose as discussed.
The bearing retaining snap ring (the deepest one in) may require a little bit of persuasion since it will be snugged up tightly to the bearing!
Spray some PB Blaster or _____ up into the bore.

Once both snap rings are out, the shaft/bearing (minus any corrosion) will come out.
Again, PB Blaster up in the bore.



I don't actually know any of this, I just read about it in the OMC manual..... or was that the Merc manual! :rolleyes:
I figured it might work for Volvo Penta too!:D
Ah, just pulling your leg..... hang in there... you'll get it!
 
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I don't see that. I've looked for the eyelets to use the pliers on, but it appears to be a solid metal round piece. On my trailer the rings are clearly visible so I think I'd be able to see them. I took closer pics of the PDS and its surroundings so you can tell if they're there or not.
 
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I can't really tell from the photos, but it almost looks as though they may have installed two seals...... and you may be looking at a second one! :eek:
Notice the space between this, and the PDS..... we certainly can't be looking at the bearing yet!

It also looks like the snap ring is either missing the eyelets (rusted away), or they used an external snap ring (these are minus the eyelets).... in which case, this would be wrong.... and now a bitch to remove.
These are hard, but with a very good quality and sharp small chisel, you may be able to cut it in several places. Been there/done that too!

i14%20external%20snap%20ring.jpg


Do you have any mechanical type buddies that could help you?

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I do have mechanic type buddies that can help. A couple actually went to MMI. The shaft does have a bit of play back and forth as well as up and down. I didn't think about the eyelets possible corroding off. I don't have any chisels. Harbor Freight here I come.
 
Those pics looks like a run of the mill seal. I'm betting, once you get that out, everything will become clear.
 
Couple of things:

Buy a quality chisel! You're going to want a hard/sharp chisel tip!
NOTE: this may involve a right turn into NAPA's parking lot, in leu of a left turn into Harbor Freight's parking lot! :D

There is no method that I am aware of, that allows us to tell if this bearing is good or border-line good.

There is a method that will let us know if it's extremely bad.

Your call in the event that for one or two seconds you were considering not replacing this! :eek:
 
I may have spoke too soon. I wiped off more grease and now I can see the eyelets. Off to NAPA/Harbor Freight I go.
 
I made a bit of progress, YAY! I was able to take one of the snap rings off. However, I can't see the other two; the small one you said not to worry about for the moment and the other big one. I sprayed some more PB Blaster and will clean out some more grease tomorrow.

I can't see how part #7 will come out. Am I going to need a puller or will it come out when the PDS comes out as a unit?
 
More progress, more progress ...

Removing #7, the seal, was a sob. I couldn't see a way to slide anything behind it to pull it. I decided since it is going to be replaced, I could destroy it. I drilled a few screws close together into it. Then I used a hammer and screw driver to bend the rim enough to compromise the structual integrity of the seal and pulled it out with a pair of pliers. Now, I can see the large snap rings in the schematic and that you spoke of.

.... If I had the seal removed it would of made removing the snap ring a whole lot easier. :cool:


p.s. I tried to post pics of what I'm talking about, but got an error message that I was past my quota.
 
I got both large (and the small) snap rings out. It appears that the noise may have been coming from some the ball bearings that have come out of the races. i found about four or five of them loose once I took the last snap ring off. Some of them were even somehow cut in half. I am having trouble getting the PDS out. I've put a pair of locking pliers (not the name of the tool, but it escapes me right now) on and have tried pulling. I've also started the engine and let it idle for a couple of minutes to see if that'll help loosen things, but to now avail. I don't see anything rusted past the u-joints/yokes. So maybe water didn't egress as far as we once thought. I'm going to spray some more pb blaster in there to see if it'll help, unless you have more suggestions.
 
1stboat said:
I got both large (and the small) snap rings out. It appears that the noise may have been coming from some the ball bearings that have come out of the races. i found about four or five of them loose once I took the last snap ring off. Some of them were even somehow cut in half. I am having trouble getting the PDS out. I've put a pair of locking pliers (not the name of the tool, but it escapes me right now) on and have tried pulling. I've also started the engine and let it idle for a couple of minutes to see if that'll help loosen things, but to now avail. I don't see anything rusted past the u-joints/yokes. So maybe water didn't egress as far as we once thought. I'm going to spray some more pb blaster in there to see if it'll help, unless you have more suggestions.
Click to expand...
No need to have removed the small snap ring.... but heh!

I'd not start the engine with the bearing this badly disintegrated.:mad:

Not that I need nor want the Koodos, but this only further confirms that my being the PDS Bearing Replacement NAZI is not such a bad deal, eh?
I wish that more AQ series Volvo Penta owners would read threads like this.
The system itself is great..... it's the lack of owner maintenance that becomes the issue!
The Merc and OMC guys are routinely replacing their Gimbal Bearings..... why are WE not more vigilant on this??????

I doubt that you've seen the damage that a failure here can cause while at cruisring RPM..... so just imagine it for now.
Think of the future damage and repair costs that you just saved yourself!
Engine removal.
Drive removal.
If you weren't lucky, front transmission bearing box work.
Drive shaft purchase/replacement.
Flywheel Cover purchase, removal and replacement.
Possibly a bent PDS replacement.
I've seen and repaired them ALL!:(

Whoah! :eek:

.
 
I should of probably mentioned it at first, but I bought the boat used and don't know what the previous owner(s) did or did not do as far as maintenance. I do know that I do as much as possible.

I do have good news to report though. The PDS is out! :)
It also doesn't have a lick of rust on it. I also think that's where the noise was coming from.

The rust on the u-joints/yokes seems to be only surface deep too. Do you think I should replace the unit or just sand the surface rust off and apply some sort of rust inhibitor on it?

The bearings in there aren't like bearings I've seen before that have an outer and inner race. Well they do but they're not together in one unit. It looks like the inner race for the bearings is on the PDS itself and the outer race comes with the bearings.

Looks like you saved me over a thousand dollars, :D
A case or two of your favorite beer is going to be headed your way. Or bottle of choice, which ever you prefer.

Now it comes time to get replacement parts. Would I have to order them from the website you posted the link to ( those prices seem pretty funny, they have commas instead of periods) or can I order them from the volvo penta store?

p.s. I'd post pics of the parts I took out, but like I said earlier; apparently I past my picture quota on the site.
 
And almost better than saving $1000:

1) you LEARNED something.
2) Will have the satisfaction of knowing that the job was done carefully, and not slapdash to meet some rate.

BTW... re the rust on the U/yokes... Surface rust can be wire brushed off. Putting a coat of rust inhibitor not necessary, but if you do that be very careful not to get any in the bearings (if installed) or in the bearing "sockets" if bearings not installed.

Also re: bearings. NO ONE (Volvo, Merc, etc) makes bearings, they all buy them from bearing manufacturers. If you carefully clean the crap off the bearing you will see the manufacturer's name and P/N on it. This number will be on the face of the bearing (talking about the shaft bearings here), and will be something like "NT 345678-a" where NT in this case refers to "New Departure" a well established American bearing company. That bearing is likely a fairly "standard" bearing and regardless of the number stamped on it, there are likely to be many folks who make them, with cross references galore. Stay away from cheap bearings. The Japanese make some good ones, there are some very good USA manufacturers. The Japanese are the only good far east ones that I know of. Materials and the design/materials of the ball retainer itself are most critical.
 
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amen to #1 & 2 sandkicker

...with that said, I can't take credit for the knowing only the doing when guided; by the rick in particular.
 
+ 1 Bob! Amen!

1stboat said:
I do have good news to report though. The PDS is out! :)

The rust on the u-joints/yokes seems to be only surface deep too. Do you think I should replace the unit or just sand the surface rust off and apply some sort of rust inhibitor on it?

Looks like you saved me over a thousand dollars, :D
A case or two of your favorite beer is going to be headed your way. Or bottle of choice, which ever you prefer.
Click to expand...
First things first.... I'm not a beer drinker per se'..... but I have been known to down a few great Margaritas while on board my boat!

Well, that is good news that you got it out!

Yes, while in there this far, I'd certainly replace the universal drive shaft bearing crosses (U-joints).
This is where I mentioned earlier that you'll need to remove the bearing box in order to remove the male yoke from the main drive gear.
Mark your three pieces, so that they can be indexed correctly when reassembling. My offer still goes!

And as far as the PDS bearing goes, I'm unable to cross referrence Volvo's p/n (3851019) to the bearing manufacture's p/n.
Typically, this would be a #6206 (plus an extension number/alpha for the sealed version).
I have this same F/C (brand new) hanging in my shop.... if it weren't for ruining the seal, I'd pull the shaft, and take a look at the bearing p/n for you.
So it looks like you'll be getting this one from Volvo Penta, unless the inner/outer race can be measured.
Even at that, you'd only save $17 or so.

Well, you're almost on the home stretch now!

Like said in post # 9..... the offer is there if you want to have me do this for you.


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