Alpha 1 Overheating

I am in the final stages of rebuilding a 1989 Sea Ray 230 from a shell and a whole lot of boxes of parts. The out drive is brand new, the engine was a long block from Carolina Machine Engines who have built engines for me before with great success. Everything is new on the engine, Timing is correct to the book. The carb was rebuilt, the motor starts and runs really sweet.

However the engine temp rises almost straight away to around 200deg at idle and stays there. I have tried:
removing the thermostat
changing the thermostat
checked water flow on a hose and muffs
it all seems OK, I am stumped anybody help out there, this is very frustrating
I have not changed the manifolds. As I said the outdrive is new with a new impeller.

I would suggest getting a thermometer and double checking to make sure your guage is reasonably accurate.

despy said:

I would suggest getting a thermometer and double checking to make sure your guage is reasonably accurate.

Click to expand...

Sounds to me the veins (water passages)of the Elbow are partially blocked .

what temp t-stat you running ?

Did you touch the exhaust elbow/riser(s)?
They should be pretty warm, but not too hot to hold your hand on.
If they're not too hot to hold your hand on, I think it's safe to say the indication you're looking at is whacky. (especially since the engine warms to 200F and stays there; that shows that there is cooling going on.)
Get one of those hand-held infrared thermometers ($50 at Sears) and check the temp at the sending unit. They're nice to have anyway. Makes troubleshooting engine cooling issues a lot easier and you can keep an eye on the exhaust elbow/riser temps and have a good indication of when it's time to replace them.
One other thought... did you look at the impeller. I know you said the drive is new... but... you don't know the condition of something until you hold it in your hand a look at it.

You got flappers / shutters, maybe one fell down and is blocking the exhaust, you would have seen it when you installed the drive.

After checking the t-stat temp cause you should be running a 160 t-stat what yours?

You say you ran it without the t-stat and it still went straight up to 200 deg. and stayed there, if true then you have a blockage for sure.

Got a heat exchanger that ain't new, could be that. Me unless the mani's and risers were 2 years old or younger i would have changed the riser's for sure.

So ether your long hose coming in from the transom is kinked, or the thru the hull fitting is kinked, or the above mentioned items, i would go thru whats been already posted one at a time till the problem is fixed.

If you don't find the problem then repost and we all can try to come up with other possible reasons.

Do the simple things first by performing a P of E (process of elimination).
One item, and one item ONLY at a time until you find the cause.

In your area (lakes/river water) you can run the warmer thermostat without issue. (I assume raw water cooled... correct?)

Your exhaust manifolds and risers should be checked at the ports where they mate. If blocked here, it can cause restriction that will contribute to your over-heating.... if you indeed are over-heating.
Pick up a Laser Temp gun and see what your actual temperature reading is...... you may not be over-heating as your instrument is suggesting!

The drive, while being NEW, does not necessarily dictate how long it's been on the parts shelf. If over a year or two, you may want to replace the impeller.
I know that you say that the impeller is new. How new? (an impeller sitting still in a pump body takes it's toll on it.... often moreso than actual normal use!)


Can you post an image of the engine for us showing your hose connections to the T stat housing, etc?


.

I'll go through the suggestions one at time. Thanks a lot for your responses, this is the only chat line where your get realistic advice. Thanks.

I'll try the gauge this weekend
Which elbow are you referring too, there is a plastic one that comes through the transom, or the exhaust risers???
Thermostat is 160 f
The exhaust risers are new but cold even when when running.
The hose on the outdrive to the transom is new and we were very careful not to kink it, I am well aware of the horror stories from this scenario, thanks for reminding me. It was an OEM hose, they are formed. I'll check the interior hose.
I'll check the temp at the sending unit this weekend.
I'll pull the impeller this weekend and check it.
I'll post a picture this weekend, but I checked against the book and had a friend who works on Mercruisers eye it he said they looked right. But he could not suggest a reason for the overheating???
As for the flappers I believe you have a good point. I will be pulling the manifolds this weekend so I will check them

Additional info:
The risers are new but the manifolds are not, I checked the manifolds for corrosion etc and blockage before I put them on they seemed clear. THe connection between them is clear and the gaskets have the right holes in them. The manifolds are the only original parts salvaged from the old engine assembly?? I even installed a new thermostat housing and new switches.
The original risers were very corroded, the boat had been in salt water all its life. That was why I installed as many new parts as I could.

Boating season is coming and I am getting webbed feet. Thanks again. I look forward to all your feed back.

If what you say is correct and the flow is keeping the manifolds and risers cool and the exaust water has good flow ,then I would check the engine circ pump for a broken shaft, or the thermostat incorrectly installed.

The engine water pump is not new, but visually was working OK the impeller was good, the bearing was tight and it did not leak water around the seal ??????.

The thermostat was new and installed the same way the old one came out. As an aside the thermostat housing is new too.

From all your responses it would appear that I have a blocked line somewhere but am not sure where. I am going to start at the transom and follow the lines through and see what I find.

I have been around boats for 40plus years and never run into this one before.

Correct me if I misread your post - it's a 1989 boat, using the original exhaust manifolds, and was operated in salt water all it's life (11 years).
That may be the first place to look. Normal manifold replacement for salt water cooled engines is about 5-6 years. Check all the other simple things as stated above. What engine is it?

I think we've narrowed you're problem down to something in between where the water goes in and where the water and exhaust come out.

Start with the cheapest/easiest to look at and work your way down the list.
If you do go buy an ifrared thermometer, get the temp readings at the all the various spots in the water circuit and post the data.
Also, it would help to know if this is raw water cooled.

Worst case, remove the drive, insert water line into water inlet hole, run engine.The hole with the O ring in the pic.

If the risers are cold, That means a faulty temp guage yes?
I had this problem for ages, Untill I replaced the temp guage, ( After I replaced nearly everything pulling my hair out Inbetween)

could be you have the HOSES going to the Manifolds and Risers(elbows) in the WRONG place from the Thermostat Housing?

OK I tried to reply with info and pics,

THIS NEW EDITOR SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO NEEDS A BUNCH OF F"N SMILIES??????????

I WANT TO INSERT PICS NOT F"N SMILIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my entire reply got lost so it sucks but I am not retyping it.

MESSAGE TO THE MODIRATORS>

GO BACK TO THE OLD ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck as I think I am not going to participate much anymore.............

kghost said:

MESSAGE TO THE MODIRATORS>

GO BACK TO THE OLD ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck as I think I am not going to participate much anymore.............

Click to expand...

kghost, I've been using the v-Bulletin format for years now. It is far superior, but will require a short learning curve.
Forget the "smilies".... they're not the problem! Just play with the menu driven icons and learn what they do!
Hang in there.... don't give up!

BTW... here is your image!

I even installed a new thermostat housing and new switches.

Click to expand...

What does "new switches" mean? A new temp sender?
If so, is this of the correct impedance for the gauge? Example: A dual station boat will require a different sender than a single station boat!
(one good reason to use the Laser Thermo gun to see if the readings are same!)
Also...... Do not use Teflon Tape on these threads!

Does the new stat have a tiny air bleed hole in it?




Here is the sea water path as it first reaches the engine:

• It enters the T stat housing via the Port side.
• A portion of it is directly ported to the Engine Circulating pump.
• The remaining portion goes directly to the exhaust cooling.
• The Engine Circulating pump forces it into the engine block and up through the cylinder heads on an "as needed" basis!
• It's only escape is through the block and the heads via the thermostat and housing!
• Once the thermostat is open, the "spent" sea water now enters the other side of the T stat housing and into the path of the "Main Stream" cooling water and on to the exhaust system.

NOTE: in order to function correctly, the stat must allow this initial air to pass around and/or through it! (hence the thermostat bleed hole)
The thermostat bulb must "sense" liquid coolant Temperature in order to open. (yes, hot gasses will eventually cause it to open, but you will have likely over-heated by then)
Once purged of air, the warm sea water (coolant) will now be able to warm the bulb on the T stat and begin the opening process!

If kghost's image is correct for your engine, then it gives you a good idea of the path!


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As for starting with the least expensive things first?????? That would not be my recipe!
Whether inexpensive or expensive, the problem area must be found and corrected.
Sure.... we do hope it is an inexpensive one! But you are going to repair/replace it anyway... Correct?
So it is best to diagnose using logic....... rather than the lowest repair cost option!

Like suggested..... use the P of E...... possibly starting at the sea water pump....., up through the copper tube..... up through the "Bell-to-Gimbal-Unit hose"......, to the inboard sea water hoses....... to the T stat housing......, out from the T stat housing to the exhaust, etc.

Good news is, IMO............., your exhaust is running cool!
This is a promising sign!

.

Rick

I appriciate the vote of confidence BUT

WTF is " v-Bulletin format" and how did you insert the pic?

I am pretty computer savy but certain things I have yet to learn or understand........This being one of them...

When you hit the "Go Advanced" button below the Message Box, it opens up another Message Box, which below that has the area for attaching pictures from your files.

Bruce.

Yes I realize that as that is what I did.

I want to be able to INSERT a picture as two others did on this thread.

You have to use the 'insert image' button, and the pic has to be 'down loadable' from the web. Below taken from 'images google', but you may use photobucket or similar. If taken from your comp. it has to be re-sized and will appear as thumb nail.

Thanks for the graphic, I actually used thet particular one to install the hoses. When I said this thing came in boxes I really meant literally in boxes. You may have seen some posts last year showing how it came to me.
The engine is a 350 chyevy that CME has upgraded to 300HP, max for the Alpha 1 outdrive. It is a remanufactured marine long block. The block was dipped and crack tested before the build. They have done several for me and I have always had good results.
From all your guys comments, it seems the concensus is there is a blockage somewhere in the system, that I have missed. This makes sense since the boat has been in salt water and the old out drive was encrusted with barnacles, it would make sense if they were on the outside some at least were inside the old cooling system. I can only assume at this point I missed cleaning something. I will check temps when on the muffs with temp sensor and see if I can figure it out.
Thanks for all your help, I will keep you posted.

Question for Ricardo Marine, Should there be pressure in the 2 hoses from the thermostat housing to the exhaust risers? I never thought about it before but these 2 hoses remain cold as do the risers and can be squeezed easily when the engine is running. there is water there but not under pressure?????

Ah, a chance to reply to an "on topic" question AND answer the image tagging question at the same time!

ukcarnut44 said:

Question for Ricardo Marine, Should there be pressure in the 2 hoses from the thermostat housing to the exhaust risers? I never thought about it before but these 2 hoses remain cold as do the risers and can be squeezed easily when the engine is running. there is water there but not under pressure?????

Click to expand...

The most pressure that you may find in a raw water cooling system will be in the engine block itself....... and that's from the Circ Pump and T stat holding back........ (unless of course the manifolds/risers are restricted.)
A rubber vane type impeller pump can be considered a semi-positive displacement type pump.... "semi" coming from the fact of the impeller being so flexible! When you pinch off, or restrict flow, you are actually causing pump inefficiency by nature of the blades allowing "would-be" pressure to slip by them.... so to speak.
(A steel gear type hydraulic pump (used on heavy equipment, for example), would be a positive displacement type pump! The parts don't flex, and nothing get's past them.... tolerances are in the ten thousandths of one inch! Some spool valves are in the millionths... but that's another story!)

Do not underestimate marine growth that could be restricting a line, oil cooler, etc. (doubt this is your issue though since your exhaust is cool to the touch)
Also, give some thought to the thermostat not bleeding air (as I mentioned earlier). A quick check in this area, would be to remove the temp sender and purge the cooling system until you get coolant (water) against the thermostat.
Look at the schematic again.... see if your system is same.
Note the notation "restrictor" at the man/riser gasket... this can not be a fully restrictive gasket for this scenario, as the mans have a supply ONLY!
The path for the manifold "spent" water, is up and through the riser! So this must flow freely!

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kghost, what I did with your image was this:
I went to "properties" (right click in the IBM world) and copied the URL.
Then I pasted the URL between two tags.
The tags are: just as shown... no spaces.
An image will be tagged and may look like this; (I have to add spaces to prevent the red X)

Remove the spaces.... insert a real URL.... and you have it!

Here is the URL to an image of me at a water fall.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1431163300035924090nKrJYm

Here it is after tagging with the IMG tags.


If I tag this image slightly differently, it shows up on this screen as a thumbnail image.


It just takes a few tries. Once you get it, it will work for just about any image that is hosted somewhere.
Images on your computer, of course, are up-loaded to the ME.com server.

.

You put the wrong t-stat housing on ? What was wrong with the old one.

There is water at the riser return lines just not under pressure and it is cold, as it should be, correct?
The gasket below the thremostat housing is full flow, correct?
I will check the thermostat for the weep hole, is it in the flange?
Is there a specific setting for the poppet balls?
I am going to but an infra red temp gun and a new temp sensor next and try that.

I really appreciate all the patience, this is a real test of wills. The rebuild so far has been a lot of work and satisfying, but this is testing my resolve.

Im fighting same problem 3 years now switched out drive some port to starboard, same problem switch circulating pump switch. The temperature probe on the top of the engine checked all hoses took the center of the thermostat out, shooting the infrared gun. The highest temp I seen was 190 on the lower part of the exhaust manifolds, when I do the other engine shooting those temperatures, it only gets about 132 water coming out of the exhaust is not crazy hot it’s warm water coming out exhaust on the other one is cool it doesn’t get so hot that it’s smoking or steaming, but yet the gauges peg, I even hooked it up to the gauge to the other side and it still showed running hot

Nice,
How about specifying what engines, year, type of cooling (closed or raw).


(Maybe you can tell my why my truck Wont start.....can you offer a guess?
The key turns, the gages seem to work, lights go on.
Any ideas?)

Ugh!

Ayuh,..... 'n why are you posting yer question in a long dead 13 year old thread, insead of starting a thread of yer own,..??