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RH 454 crusader timing

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rafe

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Hellow I'm having trouble

Hellow I'm having trouble with stb. motor timing. Distributer was relpaced before I got the boat it spins clock wise like #1 motor . Is this normal and does it change fireing order. I changed exuast manifolds and when I was done started engine had backfireing out of carb it became more often and less when adjusting timing but could not get close to mark without stalling so I tryed to advance one grove whent wrong way got worse so tryed tdc with #1 cylinder got it running pretty good barely backfiring but not near flywheel mark so tried to move one grove got worse wrong way maybee. But then I noticede I crused lower carb gasket when lying on carb replacing exaust manifold replaced that started on tdc again couldn't get to fire. Do I have the right sequence with 1 2 ...etc. or is it 1 8 ...etc because of clock wise distributor? any ideas? Then all the suden it won't turn over no power to motor from either key on stb. motor is there a reset or fuse?
 
""clock wise like #1 motor

""clock wise like #1 motor . Is this normal" YES, CCW and CW engine distributors will rotate the same direction.

"does it change fireing order. " The plug wires will be "backwards" from the other motor.

"is there a reset or fuse?" YES, usually close to the rear of the engine, marked with a big 50 possibly.

I'd say you getting far enough into the engine to deserve a service manual. That's a good thing."
 
There is fireing secquence on

There is fireing secquence on port motor on valve cover LH 18...and RH 12...do I need to pull valve cover off to get it or can I get it with #1 plug out on compression stroke? We had it so close before then we got lost! Can I get 1967 454 crusader manuel? Does the line need to be in the teeth @ 10 degrees or can it be 3/4" below the teeth bracket?
 
"Rafe, Yes, your clockwise dis

"Rafe, Yes, your clockwise distributor rotation is normal due to the engine oil pump rotation. This is done via the camshaft "drive" gear and the distributor "driven" gear.
Firing order will be reverse of your LH engine.

Time your ignition in the same way as your LH rotation engine, but of course in reverse direction of your TDC markings.

Be sure to not only set/check BASE, but to also check TA (total advance).
BASE does little good for performance if the TA is incorrect! See OEM specs for this!"
 
"Note that the "teeth brac

"Note that the "teeth bracket" would need to be different between the LH and RH engine. BTDC reverses to ATDC on the other engine.
A better way of doing this is to use timing tape on the balancer or an advance timing light.
On both, zero deg is cylinder 1 (left front) on compression."
 
"Hopefully his RH engine has a

"Hopefully his RH engine has already been set up for this. But good point!

I'd strongly suggest NOT using the digitally advancing timing light for this particular setting!
TA is just TOO dang critical on a marine engine.

You'll want to see Real Degrees and in Real Time.
One small error to the tune of only several degrees too much TA, and you can ruin an engine while under marine loads.
This is NOT Worth The Risk, IMO."
 
Ricardo:

I can understand s

Ricardo:

I can understand some concern over the accuracy with the dial type advance timming light but not with the digital flavor. I haven't seen one yet that didn't work by delaying the strobe. The math for calculating the delay is straight forward and digital circuitry makes it hard to mess up (once it has been verified as doing the corract calculation).

So what's the reservation on the digital timing lights?
 
"Mark, I suppose it's a pe

"Mark, I suppose it's a personal choice.
You know as well as I do of how critical ignition advance can be for a marine gasser..... particularly TA and especially too much TA!

I'm just not willing to place my faith in electronics that calculate via an algorithm that depicts a theoretical advance. One small user error, or one small circuitry error, and this can be off by a degree or two. A degree or two can mean the difference between poor performance, worse yet.... detonation!
Like said..... This is NOT Worth The Risk for me!
If you have seen damage due to detonation, you'll know what I am speaking about.

For setting TA, I'd rather see it in real degrees and in real time.
It's just my old school take on it."
 
"Thanks! my old dial craftsman

"Thanks! my old dial craftsman advance light is off about two degrees and has been for a long time. I have tried several versions and prefer the timing tape or an accurately scribed line.

I haven't seen a standard engine that would suffer much from a couple degrees insufficent timing but I'm sure they are out there. Usually too much is obvious but when a tin earred custommer is involved, I understand completely."
 
"Mark, that is one of the othe

"Mark, that is one of the other issues! Some hulls, engine bays and helm positions don't make it easy to detect detonation and/or pre-ignition. So it can be very hard to hear if it were to occur.

You mentioned that your light is off by two degrees! Two degrees excessive advance at the wrong RPM can begin the damage process!

Good topic! I enjoy discussing the importance of ignition and ignition timing.
Just don't get me started on the use of dished pistons in a wedge combustion chamber!
angry.gif
"
 
I was trying to match engine

I was trying to match engine #2 compression stroke with #1 engine comp. stroke by taking #1 plugs out and macthing distributors as best I could had runing pretty good before but then I messed it up again do you think I can get it this way or do I need to pull valve cover? Or other opptions in layman terms or dummied down terms.I think I'll change plugs on #2 just in case first. Does it matter if distributer is facing front of motor or back because good runnig #1 motors distributor is facing #1 outlet por stern going clockwise? Thank you Rafe.
 
"Buy the way 2,236 hours on ea

"Buy the way 2,236 hours on each motor but they ran real good before changing exust manifolds these engines are fresh water chioce. Can a bad exaust gascket make back firing out of carborator?"
 
""You mentioned that your

""You mentioned that your light is off by two degrees! Two degrees excessive advance at the wrong RPM can begin the damage process! "

I'll be the first to admit that I have put near 100% faith in a new, unknown make to me, advance timing light with a rotary knob. Pretty bold of me to assume it is within a degree or two. My next order to PAW, etc will include timing tape! Then I'll know for sure.

Rafe: Using the timing line on the balancer at the 0 degree "tooth" will narrow down to only two possible positions. One of those is cyl #1 on compression stroke. The body of the distributor can be anywhere, what matters (electrically) is the rotor pointing to the #1 plug wire. I'd try to do this without violating the valve cover seal, but if you have doubts, looking at the rocker arms on #1 will definately work for you."
 
"Dave, I just can't bring

"Dave, I just can't bring myself to doing that (faith in the advancing strobe timing light).

The degree decal is a good idea as long as it is correct for the balancer diameter. This too can throw TA off if the decal diameter is incorrect for your engine's balancer.

Dave, even with the decal, the timing strobe must be in normal mode! Strobe only!
Now you will be able to read real degrees/real time as you increase RPM to the limit or Full In RPM! Also allows us to see if the curve is correct or not!

rafesackett..., the explanation that Dave gives of the rotor direction is dead on..... It need not be positioned in any certain direction if plug wired accordingly to the firing order!
However, many of us prefer that the rotor be aiming at/near # 1 cylinder when on TDC C/S.
Like said....... it does not matter, but at the same time, it does make good sense to position it correctly! IMO.
"
 
"You are better off installing

"You are better off installing the cap so #1 is in the "standard position". The sole reason I make this recommendation is that certain spark plug wire sets have no excess and expect the resulting locations.

For your reference is a classic graphic that may help. Never hurts to have another set of eye to double check the end points and the plug lead routings.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.marineengine.com/discus/icons/mime_pdf.gif""" align=left alt=""application/pdf"">GM firing
[url=""][b]GM V-8.pdf[/b][/url] (26.7 k)</td></tr></table></center>"
 
"Mark, If I may poke a bit of

"Mark, If I may poke a bit of fun at you for a minute.....
That may pertain to certain LH rotation plug wire sets.... but I've not seen a set of RH rotation plug wires!
blush.gif


Don't get me wrong.... I too always set them up so that the rotor is aiming at # 1."
 
I have thick skin so don't

I have thick skin so don't mind pokes.

I didn't see anything rotation specific in the recommendation.
 
Thanks again I've learned

Thanks again I've learned alot of realy good imformation from all your imformation!!!
 
I found some distirbing things

I found some distirbing things on the last atempt to get the timing correct. I HAD IT IN THE 10 TO 12 DEGREE AREA BUT THEN FELT TAP ON VALVLE COVER!!! oh no pulled cover off and discovered that 5 out off 4 was so lose that they where sidways lose and even #7 cylinder was so lose that pushrod came out and broke off on cam (ges) could not find 1" piece off push rod!! Even with maganet is it possible for it to fall into oil pan? Help!!!
 
"Rafe,

Sounds like the same

"Rafe,

Sounds like the same conditions I had two yrs ago while in the sling and ready to launch. Had 4 broken pushrods adn 2 bent like the letter "S". Did you say this engine ia a 1967 vintage?

MARK and RICARDO: my head just exploded as my brain tried to wrap itself around your strobe discussion. Are you saying that my 1988 Craftsman inductive timing light is inadequate for base timing my 1992 Delco E.S.T. distributors as it is a delayed response to the impulse in the plug wire?"
 
"Rafe:

It is possible for t

"Rafe:

It is possible for that to fall into the oil pan but it is mmore likely for it to be laying in the lifter valley. Not clear on the 4 out of 5 (should have 8, right) being loose; eithter way, sounds like you have somme more work to do.

Al: All I'm saying is it is good to check the light's advance function if you are gonna use it. If it's set at ZERO and you are using it for initial timing, it should be ok. There's ALWAYS some intrinsic delay in those elctronics - propagation - but it isn't enough to worry about. It's the accuracy (calibration) of the "advance" function that's the concern."
 
I had one pushrod to jump out

I had one pushrod to jump out of its socket on my 454 CID in 2002. It lodged so that the intake valve was stuck open. Every time that cylinder fired it backfired through the carb.

I never understood why this happened.

Chuck Hanson
 
"Mark, an honest question: why

"Mark, an honest question: why even chance this when all that must be done, is to increase RPM as you are strobing the timing marks with the correct degree tape (or hard markings) in place on the harmonic balancer?

When we do this, we have just seen where our advance is, and in real degrees, and in as close to real time as it gets!

In doing so, we have eliminated the likihood of the more common error that may occur.... I.E., "user error" or "instrument error"!
Yes/No?

."
 
"[b]"MARK and RICARDO: my

""MARK and RICARDO: my head just exploded as my brain tried to wrap itself around your strobe discussion. Are you saying that my 1988 Craftsman inductive timing light is inadequate for base timing my 1992 Delco E.S.T. distributors as it is a delayed response to the impulse in the plug wire?"

Al, NO.... not suggesting that at all! Fact is, I prefer the standard type strobe light for this if the ignition advance is mechanical.
I still prefer this for the Delco E.S.T. when checking TA. And checking TA is always a wise idea, IMO.

."
 
Yes my motor is a 1667 I think

Yes my motor is a 1667 I think. I also ment 5 out of 8 rocker arms #7 short pushrod bent like S and broke how did you get broken piece out?
 
"rafe:

with over 2000 hours

"rafe:

with over 2000 hours on the engine, you may want to consider rebuilding/replacing what you have. When I worked in the shop, that was the expected service limit for most engines. That said, I got over 3000 hours on mine before they were overhauled. Probably could have got a couple more seasons but the funds were available.

If a rebuild isn't in your plans, I've recommend a minimum of removing the heads and having them reconditioned. That will also let you easily inspect the lifter valley and inspect the camshaft, too. if needed, replacing it would be easy at that point (provided you have space to remove the old one)."
 
"Rafe,

Just what mark said.

"Rafe,

Just what mark said... I had about 700 hours at the time and by removing the heads and intake, the lifter valley provided access to the entire mess.

Just be sure you can drain as much coolant from the system as you can to prevent the gush that occurs when you pop the intake off. I changed my oil 4 times in a few days just to be positive."
 
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