Drive Damper Assembly Problem

"I hate to thnk it but this ma

"I hate to thnk it but this may be one of those 4 page threads once I get into it. Went out fishing this morning (Sat) and after 5 hours decided we would head back in after a re-fuel. Running in about 2200 rpm in 40 feet when a clunk sound was heard and the engine stopped. Did not hit anything so upon arrival at the dock 1 engine...3 hours at 6kts. My brother went in to remove that new starter and found a curved spring steel piece of metal jamming the timing hole and preventing the engine from turning. Reversed the engine with a bar to loosen this metal piece. He descibes it as shaped like the nose cone of the starter motor gear cover. He has it snapped into the jaws of a visegrip tool and completly free but it is too large to remove thru the timing hole . AT THIS TIME, I can only assume the damper assembly may have broken and the piece lodged in the spinning flywheel in the bellhouse until it caught and then bent to heck and back until it took on this shape. What other piece of metal would be in there?

Any Ideas?

Once I can confirm this since there isn't all that much more in that housing, WHAT is the best method of getting this apart for repair. Do I need to remove the engine or work from behind the Walter V-drive and leave the engine in place? I tend to think either one is going to suck at my advancing age. It is so much nicer standing up in my garage at home instead of twisted up like a pretzel

Thanks in advance......! Always something... "

"Al:

glad you made it back

"Al:

glad you made it back in....and better now than memorial day.

Could be the damper. It could have gotten the starter's snout, too - did he pull the starter and see it in one piece? A picture would help ID the piece.

As far as extraction - pulling the engine would be best and may be necessary for repairs...have to wait and see there. depending upon how big it is and how hard it is, you may be able to reduce it into two or three pieces with a dremel tool. I'd be inclined to get an old magnet to collect and of the fine chips. The dremel is much easier than the hacksaw, especially in those tight spots. Don't forget the goggles."

"Thanks Mark,

The starter i

"Thanks Mark,

The starter is perfectly normal. IF it is the damper, would'nt it be necessary to replace it?"

"You definatly would have to r

"You definatly would have to replace it. Mark is right, the easy way to work on it will be to pull the engine, but depending on the space you have and how much you like being the pretzel man you might be able to do it in the boat. But it is a case of blocking up the engine, pulling the reverse gear and bell housing and any thing else out so you can do it. Any way you cut it, it sucks. Good luck with it Al."

Blocking up that engine will b

Blocking up that engine will be challenging with that V-drive.....maybe time to make arrangements for that forklift to visit?

"Geez...Makes me want to do al

"Geez...Makes me want to do almost anything else. We have spent 3 years working on getting this boat in tip top shape and now this happens. BUT I GUESS we will have all winter and fall to get it done. I am at the point where my strength is less and that torque I need is just barely there in my arms. THEN, to change a 3 lb. part I need to move 1000 lbs of metal. I will be TRYING to cut the bent part up and remove it to clarify more of what it probably is...I am SURE there will be a ton of questions to follow...I have never done this stuff before.

Paul: It is an old 34C...There is NO SPACE. The repower before I got it, used all whatever space it MAY have had.

Mark: Launching the Bayliner on Tuesday or Wednesday... Guess the two did pay off. We still have 3 months of the season to live for"

"Accordiing to it's manual

"Accordiing to it's manual: the engine, once disconnected, is removed with the transmission/v-drive still attached. It this true?

I would THINK that would make the pretzel twisting body positions less in the hull if it can all be repaired on the dock...Then replaced as a single unit and mounted."

"Al; If its any consolation,

"Al; If its any consolation, I did a R&R on my Stb engine years ago, for just a rattling dampner. Of course, once it's out, it's a great time to do any real derusting and paint touchup. Once the engine/xmission is out, the dampner R&R is maybe a 30 minute job."

"Yes Dave it is a sort of cons

"Yes Dave it is a sort of consolation. I kind of assumed it might be faster to repair the problem that it is THAN to do all of the prep and finalizations it will require. I've made arrangements with the local marina to bring it in and get started this week.

Let me ask this...IS it better to dock in a "repair" slip and have them lift the engine with a fork lift if possible or better to haul and block the boat and do it from the hard. I realize the weight will cause a reasonable list to port when the stb engine is removed ..BUT

Once out as you say Dave, I can clean and paint , and do things that are just NOT too easy to do with the engine in place. I may even change a few parts, seals etc...

I keep seeing EJ BREEZE's magnificant gelcoat job in front of me and IF I could get this thing to my house..Next season it would look like a magazine add for a 1980's Silverton. At a boatyard 30 miles away...I just can't put in that hour or 2 after dinner or otherwise to get things going.

Problem being I live in the deep woods on a dirt road with 1 90 degree turn that will require a few bumps with a backhow or loader to get the trailer in .

I would also have to remove the fly bridge to keep her under the power lines and overhead cables. AND...as much as it is a lot of work...I do love my boat...( well you know what I mean)"

"Al; I've done both ways,

"Al; I've done both ways, floating and on the hard. I'm very fortunate to be living just 100' away from the floating boat, with a davit at the ready to yank up the engine. It's 1 hour from the thought to actually having the engine under a Mango shade tree in the back yard. Yes, there is significant listing, I get the neighbors worried every time! If you don't have the vertical space for the davit trick, then its to the boatyard and either the fork or a long boom crane."

"Al:

Like Dave, I done it b

"Al:

Like Dave, I done it both ways. If you leave it floating and plan to move it, make sure you secure the shaft so the prop doesn't get friendly with the rudder. It is six of one-half dozen of the other beyond the extra haul & block expense.

If you can rig up a cradle to hold the v-drive+engine, you could always take it home if your shop has space....big item is how long you can keep it in the slip. Beats packing up a tool box and being short that one item."

"Thanks Guys,

THAT has alwa

"Thanks Guys,

THAT has always been my biggest heartache. When I lived about 14 miles from the slip, It was a pain when something was 1/4 " off or a tool was missing but it was do-able. BUT being further away now is truly the biggest problem. At the house I can do almost anything within accepted reason... My pickup only holds so much . I get the feeling we will be better off blocking the boat but the added cost will likely be about $500 more ... Last time it was $170 for the haul and blocking is ??? $11.00/ft. BUT if it takes me a few days more because of the other little jobs in between...it wont matter too much.

OK...Heres the bigger question...Does the damper spin? It appears in the exploded parts book like it is bolted in place and may have a rotating center? Looks almost like a clutch plate in a manual car transmission to me."

"Does is spin - kind of......

"Does is spin - kind of......

It's like a manual clutch but with the splined hub isolated from the outer shell (which bolts to the flywheel vs being sweezed by the pressure plate). The ones I'd had apart, the splined hub will rotate maybe 20-30 degrees between its 'stops'. The six springs keep it in the center, between the stops.

If the splined hub rotates freely, then I'd say the springs and the stop pins have grenaded. If the damper moves w/o the flywheel moving, its lost its mounting bolts (to the flywheel)."

"Thank you again .. This confi

"Thank you again .. This confirms my thoughts about it. I went over our data log from the chartplotter tracks to see when and where this occurred. Certainly interesting. I had the throttles at about 1800 and was climbing at 2200 towards 3000 when it went from 19kts for 85 feet at 10:13am to the "CLUNK" and then down to .7 and .5 while my brother and I looked at each other with that puzzled " WTF" was that look.

Given the curled look of the plate metal in the timing hole, it probably lost the bolts, got flung into the spinning part, got jammed then killed the engine.

As I sit here this morning..any thought about those monster props over stressing anything? I would not think if it did that this area of damage would be the spot. Our 454's can really begin to roar once she planes and starts building some real speed. It's not BIG speed but when that 34C starts lifting up and flattening out from 20 to 28 knots it seems quick especially on flatter seas AND is this an age/hours wear item and the other side my bail out in a few more hours ...about 820 hours on these engine rebuilds and possibly original 1992 dampers"

I'd say the props didn&#39

I'd say the props didn't help the situation.

Did you have the flywheel off when the engines were rebuilt? Did you reuse the hardware? Use 271 on the bolts? (I reused all mine we I went thru the drill.) Torque the bolts to spec? Calibrated wrench used?

"I just did an engine swap on

"I just did an engine swap on my 36' Pacemaker in the water. Made arrangements with the marina across the creek from me and forked it out on a Friday (came out easy once the outside riser was removed), swapped the trans and mounts onto the "new" engine and forked it back in on Saturday. Was back up and running on Sunday. Boat did have a slight list to it but nothing crazy. Be sure you tie the exhaust hoses above the waterline so you don't sink the boat.
Once the engine is out, working on it is very easy cmpared to the twisting needed for in place repairs. Mark any wires you might have to take off so the refit is seemless and the worst part will probably be the twisting to get to the mounting bolts."

"Thanks Rich... That's kin

"Thanks Rich... That's kind of what I was finally ready for, and as Dave mentioned, it is a good time to get to those inaccessible things between the side of the hull and the engine.

Mark,

I did not do that rebuild. We got the boat 3 years ago and these elements were completed. It seems like previous owners did not maintain anything and we have spent the last 3 years in between fish runs fiberglassing decking soft spots, rebuilding the AC electrical system and relocating the galley, while increasing saloon space with a few decorating components tossed in here and there.

My area of expertise is in vintage American motorcycles from about 1909 to 1965 with a special interest in the 1920's to 1940's 4 cylinder in line bikes like the one I did in that avatar. That one was in a national magazine and a midwest bike calendar for the main cover and the month of January. They don't have drive dampeners ! But I do know the drill.

I hate to say it but: EVERYTHING I have learned about the boat restoration process I have either learned by doing it or have gotten answers from people like you and other "regulars" RIGHT HERE on marineengine.com...that is it, period. I have never done anything to a car or boat engine. Since the valve fiasco and cooling system junk, our boat until now, has been made sound, mechanically near perfect and as safe as any USCG inspector would call approved. It took an awful lot of work and effort. The only real setback we have had is this instant development with this problem. Without boasting, I know when I put in something it is correctly done and no longer needs special attention other than its' designated inspection.

THIS THING REALLYS GETS ME as I basically had no control over why it happens. I THINK, it is the same reason I don't fly BUT, like all of the other stuff, it will get done once I learn the steps involved."

"Fly yourself, it's well w

"Fly yourself, it's well worth it.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u99/Rich_P-/Camera021.jpg""

"AGH! Rich, great picture...s

"AGH! Rich, great picture...surely does'nt float my boat ( sorry...I could'nt resist)"

"help lost power to instrume

"help lost power to instrument panel and all switches, engine starts fine, this hapend after i changed battery,s thanks."

"Al, from your description it

"Al, from your description it does sound like a couple of bolts sheared and your damper is coming apart. I feel your pain. Its more typical to lose a spring or two which creates a racket but usually won't disable the engine.

FWIW I replaced a damper this spring but with inline drives and plenty of room to remove the gear and block the engines it really wasn't that hard. Like you I received my guidance from this board and was grateful for it.

V-drives make the process much more difficult to perform on the water. A few hours horsing around with a 250 lb V-drive in the bilge (while lying on your side) and you will begin to see wisdom of pulling the engine. The actual process of replacing the damper is quite simple but its tough to generate any leverage down there. Good luck and keep us posted."

"Thomas,

Thanks for your in

"Thomas,

Thanks for your input. I found that out when we pulled the shafts and struts last year. Had it not been for my brothers' massive strength and 2 heads are better than 1 theory, IT WOULD STILL BE getting done.

I think it was at that point that we had decided IF we could ever afford it...One of those 45 to 50+ footers with a standup engine room was the way to go !

Having been in that 29 " inch space with a 44 " waist has enlightened me many times"

"Here is a picture of the part

"Here is a picture of the part as it sticks out of the timing hole on the bellhousing. It is too large to remove but it also "looks" like it is probably the damper. Got all of the engine mount nuts removed and ready to come out. Disconnected everything I can think of so far. Turns out, there is no other mounting pads for the trans or v-drives. They are just mounted to the back of the engine
damper

I have my "old" engine

I have my "old" engine on a stand at my shop. I'll snap a pic of it tomorrow since the trans is off of and you can see what is in there.

"Thanks Rich, I can see that

"Thanks Rich, I can see that being quite helpful and I do appreciate it. What happened that you replaced the engine?"

"Al:

I'd guess that is

"Al:

I'd guess that is the aft outer case of the damper, where the mounting bolts go in. Looks like it grenaded on you.

When you pull it, I'd run it (& the rest of the pieces) by your propscan guys and see what they think....I've been they have seen more than all of us combined."

"Mark, Do you mean they would

"Mark, Do you mean they would have the damper experiences from props blowing them up? OR they are very familiar with metal fatigue? I am not sure I understand the reasons...

IF I were to release that visegrip..that piece would just drop freely into the bellhousing and it measures about 3/16 in thickness"

"I had an engine blow all the

"I had an engine blow all the oil out the dipstick at about 3400 rpm. By the time I noticed it from the no oil pressure alarm, the damage was done. Not sure of the cause yet. It still runs and will build oil pressure, but there is some major noise from the upper engine and massive blow by (most likely piston rings). I plan on tearing it down and then deciding on a rebuild or short block. I found a complete used replacement that all I had to swap was my tranny (came with wrong rotation trans bolted to it), two gauge sensors (dual stations), and 8" risers."

"Rich; It was the blowby that

"Rich; It was the blowby that caused the oil leak out the dipstick. Question is: what is the noisy item that caused the blowby, maybe a piston melted thru or a broke ring, or now, both..."

"I have not torn into it yet b

"I have not torn into it yet but theory is it broke a ring and developed the huge blowby, blew the oil out, lost lubrication at high rpm and then did valve train damage.
I have the damper pics on my camera, just have upload them."