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Twin Crusaders with poor compressionDo I walk away from this deal

N

nightstalker

Regular Contributor
"I was told that the 1984, 454

"I was told that the 1984, 454, Crusaders (800 hours) in the vessel I'm looking to buy ran great and had good compression (130 or better) according to the owner. Prior to a full survey, I had a compression test done by the marina. This compression test by the marina mechanic told a much different story. The Port engine had cold compression between 60 and 70 in all cylinders, while the Starbord engine was even worse (one cylinder had a compression of 30). The mechanic said that he couldn't believe the vessel even made it to their marina for winter storage with compression readings so low. I can get my full deposit back and was ready to walk away from the deal when the mechanic said that he wanted to try another compression test after the boat was launched and ran until the engines are at operating temperature. The owner agree to pay for everything (launch, second compression test, etc.). Mechanic said maybe something caused the low readings that running her may solve. I'm ready to walk away from the deal, but my wife likes the boat. I've got nothing to lose. What do you think? Could something have caused these low readings that could get straightened out by running her? If the readings improve to acceptable levels, how do I know that there isn't still something seriousely wrong with these engines? If the second test still shows poor compression, I guess I could lower my offer to a point where I could have the engines rebuilt or replaced. Anyone have any idea of what it would cost to have the marina remove, rebuild, replace these two engines. I would really appreciate any of your thoughts or opinions as to what I should think or do.
Nightstalker"
 
"Nothing I know of that runnin

"Nothing I know of that running will 'fix' regarding low engine compression. (Cold compression checks are sanctioned by GM and have been for years.) "Nothing to lose"; depends upon whether or not you like to be tied to the dock all summer making payments and Not cruising around on the boat.

I'd go for factory refurbed units (full up warranty) as you don't know if the bolt on stuff was cared for any better. You can get them for ~ 10K each, with new gears and mounts. Just rebuilt (generic) marine 454's are on-line for $3K each. All the bolt on stuff will have to be checked and then swapped. The cores may have to be returned (2 units * two trips = lots of $$ for freight.) As for the labor, ask locally as we can only guess...bigger question is how long will it take them if they start on next monday (& will they put that in writing).

Unless you want the potential headaches & the owner's willing to make it worthwhile, I'd have the truck running and be going to look at the next boat on the list."
 
"Don't walk RUN. Why buy a

"Don't walk RUN. Why buy a problem. The economy being what it is there are lots of newer boats for sale. I replaced my twin 84 Merc 454s with 2007 crusaders 5.7 efi with returnless fuel system. Rebuilt trans.new mounts, harnesses,dampers.cost me $21,000 delivered. & did the job myself. Engines were very accessible (no carpentry).Some additional $ for exhaust fabrication going from 3"risers to 4", new fuel filters hoses mounting brackets all add up.I am told $10,000 in labor cost would not be excessive.Do you want to put this kind of money into a boat you know nothing about (hull blisters,rotted stringers)? Resale value will go up with the repower but no where near what you will spend.I had my boat since new & know it inside out. I thought long and hard about repowering.I am glad I did,it is like a new boat."
 
"I agree, unless you get an ex

"I agree, unless you get an extremley nice deal on the price, it is going to be a very expensive project to get the boat it's power back.

..and Mark is right, there isn't really anything that will raise the compression that much by running it. You may get a few PSI if the rings were carboned up, but doubtful.

Good luck, I'm reluctantly looking into re-powering in the next few years..."
 
"From what I'm reading, I

"From what I'm reading, I can figure somewhere in the area of $30,000 to have these engines rebuilt. $10,000 per engine for the rebuild, plus $5,000 for labor for each engine. If I were the owner, I wouldn't drop the price $30,000, I'd find the cheapest repower I could, and try to sell it like that. I think I may take the offer of a sea trial, followed by a second compression test, because it won't cost me anything, and I can see what else doesn't work on this vessel and get an idea of how she rides. I've got my truck running, pointed away from his vessel, and ready to hit the gas.
Nightstalker"
 
"Makomark:
Talked to the loca

"Makomark:
Talked to the local marina guy. He said about $40,000 to $45,000 to replace the engines with brand new ones including labor. He said that long blocks would cost $5000 each and to figure about $5000 for the "stuff" on my engines that probably need to be replaced (carbs, manifolds, risers, something with the trannys, etc) and at least $10,000 labor for a minimum of $25,000. He didn't say anything about factory refurbished units. That's a lot of doe.
Nightstalker"
 
"If the local mamrina shop is

"If the local mamrina shop is busy, ask them if they are publicly traded, I'd like to own some of their stock.

The long block $ + the Stuff's $ are about the price for the refurbed, factory Complete package, and you don't have the stuff swap labor...yes, lots of dough. And you thought you had nothing to lose? Glad you're thinking and not writing checks, at least yet."
 
"The mechanic didn't talk

"The mechanic didn't talk to me about a factory refurbished engine. Are they the whole unit (risrs, carb,manifold, etc.). I think I'll end up walking away, but the thing that keeps me interested is the vessel. These Uniflites are quality boats and hard to find. I've got it in the back of my head that a vessel like this with rebuilt engines would be a better investment than spending the same amount of $ on a newer, lesser quality boat. I guess it all depends on how good a deal I could get. I'd have to see a BIG drop in the agreed upon price, (REAL BIG), probably enough to pay for the rebuilds.
Nightstalker"
 
"Gary, Shop for all new engine

"Gary, Shop for all new engines.You get a warrentee on the whole package. I would not go rebuilt.If they don't run right your reused parts are going to be blamed. Do you want to reuse a 25 year old heat exchanger? A new one is close to $600. If it goes your inconvenienced. If that old oil cooler goes its catastrophic. When my 25 year old engines came out of the bilge & I looked at them in daylight,they were a mess.I took care of these engines.They were still running strong with 3000 hours. The crankshaft pulley was rusted through. How the belts stayed on I don't know."
 
"Gary

As far as what they c

"Gary

As far as what they come with, you'll probably have to wait til Monday and call one of the distributors. You can find them by doing an internet search with "refurbished". I remember one add stating "complete" - bobtail or w/ gear didn't stick in my memory. They do come with a warranty; again, I'd need to see it in black and white before assessing it."
 
"45k for new engines! I'd

"45k for new engines! I'd be thinking yanmar 240hp for ~ 50k... Of course, that shop would want 65k."
 
"When I said "nothing to l

"When I said "nothing to lose"' I was refering to the cost of the in water, second compression test. That's a freebee for me. Repowering, and fixing anything else that is in need of attention could coat a bundle. Even if I can negotiate a sunstantial reduction in the agree upon price (cost of repower), I'd have the vessel surveyed to determine what else needs attention and throw that into the new offer.
Nightstalker"
 
I walked away from the deal. I

I walked away from the deal. I wasn't comfortable with thge first compression test and couldn't see how a second "warm" test could have been much better. I get my deposit back and I'll just keep looking.
Nightstalker
 
I never thought about that! T

I never thought about that! Thanks again for all the help. I learned quite a bit and will use that knowledge as my quest continues.
Gary
 
"The sage continues. The owner

"The sage continues. The owner of the boat called me last night to tell me that he "guarenteed" that the engines ran well. I told him that I believe the compression test, not an owners verbal guarentee. He made me the same offer. Come see the vessel again, he'd put her in the water for a sea trial. If she ran good, I could pay for a second compression test. If I ended up buying it, I'd pay for the launch, compression test, etc. I told him NO! I think he needs to have the engines independently tested with a written evaluation as to their performance befor myself or anyone else would consider buying it. I guess a broker has to let perspective buyers know that he is aware of a possible problem. I don't think the owner was very happy, but that's the way it goes. I'm looking at another vessel next Monday.
Gary"
 
"I took the sea trial. Vessel

"I took the sea trial. Vessel ran well (no smoke, good oil pressure and temperature). She did 14 knots at 3400 RPM's and a little over 19 knots at 4000 RPM's. Had a second hot compression test done when we returned to the dock. Mechanic said compression almost doubled. One engine read between 75-95, the other 80-105. Mechanic said that we should have run her wide open for 10 to 15 minutes (only had her opened up for 2 or 3. So, the compression did improve dramatically but not to that magical number of 100. Mechanic said that these old engines may still have a lot of life left in them but I don't know.
Nightstalker"
 
"Gary,

That magical number

"Gary,

That magical number I believe is 130 or higher as you stated in your original post. They seem to be pretty low to me, especially after being warmed up. Were all the plugs pulled and then the compression taken on each cylinder with the same number of compression strokes as was needed to get the #1 cyclinder to the maximum? Was the throttle and choke open fully. Is 14 knots at 3400 rpm considered OK for that boat? I have a 1990 18000lb Silverton with original crusaders that will do about 21-22mph at 3400rpm and WOT of 29mph at 4450rpm. They have well over 1000 hours and I know are "tired". 3 years ago when surveyed the cold compression was at least 125 in each cylinder and that is what the mechanic was looking for. If I knew then what I know now, I would have asked for the details of how he did the test and what the readings were on each cylinder for future comparison.

Good luck!
Erich"
 
"Gary, How they used to run

"Gary, How they used to run is irrevelent to how they check out NOW. Even good compression tests do not guarentee eveything is fine. I had good cold tests, ran excellent on survey and ran excellent after I bought it for about 8 months. After that the engines started to sour and the compression decreased. Eventually I had to rebuild both before they reached critical compression. From what I have read of this thread I would say WALK. Unless you want a project boat. To many boats around ready to run without much work and at a decent price."
 
And find yourself a much light

And find yourself a much lighter boat! The gas that thing would use is horrendous.

Jeff
 
"I have tired twin 350's h

"I have tired twin 350's hours unknown in a 1966 Californian. Engines not original. Castings indicate 1969 the pair. Three years ago cold compression with all the plugs out were 113 thru 115 on all cylinders but one on each engine was around 40. The boat had sat for 2 1/2 years prior to my purchase 3 years ago. Havent done a compression test since. They run great and Im afraid to check again. I will just keep them below 3000rpm and they will run for years. Speeds at rpm per GPS on calm seas are as follows 2000rpm = 13knots,2300rpm =16knots, 2500rpm 20knots. She's plenty comfortable at those ranges. No need to push her."
 
In the words of Darth Vader &#

In the words of Darth Vader (when fighting his son in 'The Empire Strikes Back') "Impressive!"

Jeff
 
"Deal is totally dead. Owner w

"Deal is totally dead. Owner wanted to drop original agreed upon price $2000. I told him to forget it and offered $20,000 less. He said no, so I walked. He kept bringing up the fact that the vessel ran good on the sea trial, but I wasn't going to negate the poor compression. It was a tough vessel to walk away from because of the fact that his original asking price was about $20,000 to $25,000 less than the asking price of the other 4 Uniflites on the Eastern Seaboard.
Thanks again for the advice.
Gary"
 
"I agree with Jeff. When all

"I agree with Jeff. When all the stars are aligned, everything looks just right, you are in love with the boat, your mechanic believes it is a honey, the deal is right and your woman is not complaining too much the conditions are right to buy a boat. Starting out with doubts, low compression, and a nagging feeling that you may be making a bad decision says to me keep looking. I am at Aqua Yacht Harbor at Pickwick lake on the Tennessee River. It is definitely a buyers' market and it will be for a while.

Don't be surprised if the owner comes back and makes a counter close to the $20M off you suggested. I believe the saying goes "be careful what you ask for you may get it".

Chuck Hanson"
 
"Hey Chuck, Isn.t that in Iuk

"Hey Chuck, Isn.t that in Iuka? If so, I've done two jobs there over the last few years.

If I ever get down there again I'll be sure to look you up.

Rick"
 
"The address is Iuka, MS. I a

"The address is Iuka, MS. I am at Aqua Yacht Harbor on Mississippi HWY 25 right at the Tennessee state line. My boat is named Charlie Ann and is at E Dock. Happy to have you. Just let me know and I will be sure to be there. If I am not inside I will be in the engine bilge. That is where I spend a lot of time.

Chuck Hanson"
 
"After no contact for a month,

"After no contact for a month, the broker called today to tell me that the owner ran the vessel for the past month before putting her back on land and that the last compression test showed readings between 90 and 100. He said that the owner would lower his price by $10,000, putting the asking price at $67,500. I declined his new offer.
Nightstalker"
 
"Gary, Smart choice. My brot

"Gary, Smart choice. My brother is always looking for a different boat. We love and use ours whenever possible....but he really really looks and sends me all kinds of listings.

As you likely know, the boats we could buy for $65,000.00 today, I could use for charter fishing and midnight cruises and more.

Frankly we would love about 10000 lbs more in weight and 10' more LOA, wider beam, etc etc. Certainly achievable for $65k."
 
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