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454XL fuel pump

kevin_z

kevin_z

Regular Contributor
"1995 Crusader 454XL.  It will

"1995 Crusader 454XL.  It will turn over, but not start. I poured a small amount of gas down the carb, and she fired up for a second.  Is it the fuel pump?  What is a good easy test to check the fuel pump?"
 
"Well that's possible, but

"Well that's possible, but I would put a fuel system pressure gauge on it before spend the money for a new pump. It could be as simple as a filter or a relay. Can you hear the pump cycle when you turn the key on?"
 
Put a pressure gage in the lin

Put a pressure gage in the line to the carb. you should see around 5 to 6.5 psi pressure.

Jeff
 
"What about the fuel pump pres

"What about the fuel pump pressure switch? Do they go bad? What is it purpose? It looks like it goes in the block and would tell oil pressure, but the wires do go to the fuel pump (purple/red), netural safety switch (yellow/red), and ingition (purple). I took the fuel pump off and did a bench test.( hooked it up to a battery and it worked fine) When I put my multi-meter on the fuel pump harness leads, I got eratic readings when I turn the ingition on or turn the engine over."
 
"That's a safety deal. If

"That's a safety deal. If the motor isn't running (and making oil pressure) then your fuel pump will not run. This is in case the line breaks, so the bilge won't fill with gas without the motor running.

It's possible that you have a bad switch or wiring connection that's preventing the fuel pump from running. I suggest you TEMPORARILY jumper the switch and listen for the pump to run.

Jeff"
 
"Thanks Jeff, that is the answ

"Thanks Jeff, that is the answer that I was looking for. Now what leads do I use to by pass the fuel pump pressure switch? Yellow/red, purple, purple/red?"
 
"Kevin,

Please don't ta

"Kevin,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you are going to do all of your own repairs and maintenance, you should really have the right service manual for your engine.

Even guys who do this for a living rely on printed information to reference and verify their findings.

Engines differ by model and year and you can not always rely on the internet to provide accurate information, especially when the safety of your family and friends is at stake.

Most of the contributors here will provide good and accurate information, and most of them will also agree with me that that is no replacement for the factory documentation.

I am certainly not trying to discourage you from doing your own repairs, in fact, I encourage it. The more familiar you are with your boat, the more prepared you are to deal with any issues or emergencies that might arise when you have no other help available. But in order to do this, you need the right tools.

Thanks for posting and I look forward to helping you, and everyone here as much as I can, but I hope all of you reading this understand where I'm coming from.

Rick"
 
"Kevin:

Rick's point is

"Kevin:

Rick's point is very valid; I'd only add that your money is best spent getting the OEM literature.

As far as the 'which wire' query, your owner's manual should have the engine wiring diagram. Based on my recollection, most of the pumps are wired thru a single pole, double throw switch. The normally closed path thru the switch feeds the pump when cranking. When the engine starts, the oil pressure builds and the switch should change position. The pump would then receive current thru the normally open path, usually feed thru the ignition switch.

Regarding all those different colors in the harness, you can find many tables showing the functions for each color on the www. Be aware that not everybody follows the standards and 'surprises' are not uncommon. I've found that the engine manufacturers are pretty good and the boat makers vary across the board. Yet another example of "you get what you pay for".

One other point, when checking pump circuits, I've found a modest draw (amp-wise) test light works much more reliably than any meter. The big reason is that the meter will show voltage across a 'marginal' switch. Hook up a pump to that same switch and it won't run....turns out the switch won't pass enough current to let the pump start due to the voltage drop across the switch (from the resistance that made it marginal).

Hope this helps"
 
"Mako, Rick,
Your guys ar

"Mako, Rick,
Your guys are correct, and I apperciate the great advice/help. I have the service manual for my 454s and of course the owners manual. I understand the great care that must be taken in the fuel (gas) delivery system on my boat. I want to trouble shoot the fuel pump
pressure switch. I will not go for a boat ride without all the proper safety devices intact.
Looking at my service manual and the fuel pump pressure switch, there are three wires, colors and purpose listed above. I think there should be some way to bypass this sensor and start the engine for a second. If it starts, I will buy a new one.
On a side note, I own a marine electronics installation/electrical company here in the Florida panhandle, but these Crusaders are new to me and there are no real experts on the 454XL (MSTS)in this area.
Thanks again for the great expertise you all give out.
Capt. Kevin Z"
 
"CAPT KEVIN,USUALLY...but not

"CAPT KEVIN,USUALLY...but not always, the oil pressure switch supplies ground to the fuel pump relay via the contacts inside the pressure switch.ground to the switch,oil pressure makes the contacts close,ground out to the relay,then to the pump.3spade switches are the same,only it supplies a ground to start with,and then drops that leg when the oil pressure comes up. My two cents worth. This is what I've run across before,so you might want to use some thing like a logic probe to check polarity before by passing any thing. TURBOMAN ROLLTIDE 11-0"
 
This is what I did. I connect

This is what I did. I connected the purple/red wire and purple wire together with a heat shrink wire connector. The yelloow/red wire was ended with a heat shrink butt connector. The engine started right up. Problem solved. The new fuel pump pressure switch was ordered today. No boating until it is installed. Thanks again to all the expert and practical advice.
Capt. Kevin
 
"Hi guys, I'm in the same

"Hi guys, I'm in the same boat so to speak. I have twin 454 Crusaders in my 1985 Chris Craft and the port engine just died on me. I've narrowed it down to a fuel pump problem since the fuel pump has a cotter pin sticking out of it up at the neck where it is bolted to the engine. I've tried to slid this pin back into place but I think the internal rocker arm is preventing the pin from doing that. Why this would slid out of place is beyond me but there it is. Do I have to remove the pump to fix this or can I access the rocker arm by removing the diaphragm covers of the pump and push the rocker back up into place so the holes line up and the pin goes back where it belongs? I'm reluctant to remove the pump as this will probably kill the gasket and it will take weeks/months for me to get a new gasket delivered, but if that's unavoidable, so be it. Thanks for any advise/help you can offer."
 
"Hi Peter, I don't know wh

"Hi Peter, I don't know where you are but the fuel pump mounting gasket on a 454 Chevrolet V8 is the same on marine and car or truck. The pump itself must be for marine use with a vent line going to the carb. The gasket is also the same as a number of GM and Ford 6 and 8 cylinder engines. Somewhat of a diamond shape with 2 mounting holes."
 
"Thanks James, that's good

"Thanks James, that's good to know as there's lots of those truck engines around here. Now I just have to get that cotter pin back into the pump's rocker arm somehow... ?yuck."
 
"Peter:

I'd guess that

"Peter:

I'd guess that your 'cotter pin' is really a roll pin in the mounting flange of the pump. That roll pin form the pivot for the rocker arm of the pump.

I'd suggest removing the pump to inspect the arm and the pin before attemping the repair. If the pin just slipped out, the arm should be repositioned and the roll pin reinserted. There should be a return spring on the 'blind' side of the arm.

If the pumps are original (or age unknown) you may want to consider replacing both, while you have the time and she's floating at the dock.

good luck!"
 
"Great thread!
I have the mec

"Great thread!
I have the mech pump on my 1980 CC 410 (454's)... Where can I find a replacement pump? Can't seem to find them here...

Thanks,
-freddie"
 
"Makomark:
I responded to you

"Makomark:
I responded to your Feb 10 advise but I don't see the message I did. My apologies if the message didn't make it through as I'm new at this. I just wanted to thank you for your help. The weather has been really rotten here so I've not been able to get to the boat repair. Anyhow, thanks again for your advise"
 
"makomark,
I want to thank yo

"makomark,
I want to thank you too! I am not sure how I missed that page...???


-freddie"
 
"you are both welcome! that&#3

"you are both welcome! that's why we are here.

Peter:

no need to apologize to me.

if the roll pin is what's out, you'll find a pretty healthy spring behind it. (the roll pin runs fore-aft, parallel to the flange, above the bolt holes, if i remember correctly.) it may be a real PITA to get it back in. If you engine access is tight, I'd say having a reeplacement (new) pump to install would be the easiest. then you can get the old one working again at your leisure."
 
"Thanks mako but I didn't

"Thanks mako but I didn't want you to think I didn't get your message and that I wasn't grateful for your advise. Anyhow, I have all of the hoses out of the way to access the pump except for the oil cooler lines. The roll pin does run fore-aft and is as you describe it. At the moment the pin is protruding out over the left hand bolt on the fuel pump flange making it near impossible to get a socket over that bolt to loosen it. Will the pin slide out completely if properly gripped allowing me to access the bolt or is the pin held into the pump somehow?

Any chance that the pump spring has sprung into the oil pan/sump?

Regarding a new pump, I will order one through Marine Engine of course - any need to order one for the other engine, i.e. if this one went the other is shortly behind? Thanks."
 
"The roll pin should be held b

"The roll pin should be held by friction, between it and its bore thru the flange. Normally, I'd expect them to move when persuaded with a punch and hammer (I can say this is a routine operation).

It could have sprung into the pan but I'd say that is a remote possibility. If it did, I'd be incline to let it lay. If its on the windage tray it won't stay there for long.

If they are original, I'd say they are both overdue for replacement. its not unusual for them to go 10 years with moderate use, then again, i've seen them fail in under 200 hours.

Why you have it out, check the push rod for wear and the cam lobe, too, if you have the measuring tools. The rod should be 5.76" and the lobe lift (rod movement, axially) should be 0.344", for a stock cam. There's a plate between the block and pump that will need to be pulled for the rod to come out. also, a thin grease on the rod will help hold it in its slot during reassembly. Also, you may find it beneficial to rotate the engine to get the rod on the low spot of the cam to make reinstallation easier."
 
"Mako,
check this out. Looki

"Mako,
check this out. Looking at the fuel pumps connection to the engine block, the paint job has not been disturbed so unless the engines were repainted later on (which looks unlikely), the pumps are original, making them 24 years old with almost 2000 hrs on each engine - due for a change maybe..."
 
not a bad idea.

to paraphra

not a bad idea.

to paraphrase a famous commercial:

you can pay the parts man now or seatow later
 
"Wise advice.

You mentioned

"Wise advice.

You mentioned before that replacing the fuel pump was a routine operation. So, as it's my first doing this on these engines, can I assume there are no booby traps or special tools needed beside the equipment for measuring wear and tear?"
 
"i prefer line wrenches for th

"i prefer line wrenches for the inverted flare fitting. Use pipe sealant with teflon (loctite PST) instead of teflon tape on the pipe threads.
I like to use torque wrench for the fasteners.

as mentioned before, manually rotate the engine to get the fuel pump eccentric to its lowest point will make reinstall easier (having open fuel line and using the starter motor is bad practice). a thin grease will help hold the push rod up.

dial calipers will measure the push rod and a dial indicator will do the travel mmeasurement nicely."
 
Makomark forgot which engines

Makomark forgot which engines you have when he told you to remove plate behind the pump to access pump pushrod. 454 has a pipe plug just below pump for pushrod access. 350 uses the plate.
 
"Well, success removing the pu

"Well, success removing the pump finally. Turns out the center rocker arm strap was blocking my punch from pushing the roll pin through/out. Anyhow, I've reassembled the pumping mechanism and tightened the diaphragm screws hand firm. That as good as it's going to get until replacements arrive.

It's an AC pump with an aluminum tag on one of the diaphragm screws with the numbers E 40155 002A on it. I'm hoping AC (or Carter?) makes a replacement for my 24 year old 454s.

I noticed that the push rod is located in a small well in the engine block with no signs of a lubricating system. Does the oil come down through the push rod sleeve to lubricate the rod and pump arm or are the movements minute enough that little or no lub is required? I ask because there is no sign of any oil/lubricant on the push rod or in the well where the fuel pump rocker arm connects with the push rod.

Mako do you think the clearances and rod length is the same for my 454s? I have the service manual for 454s from 1980 to 1992 but the pump it describes is not the one on my engines, at lease it doesn't look like mine. And it talks about a clear fuel line from the pump to the carb which is copper on my engines. I'll have a closer look at the specs in the manual re the rod's length etc and if mine are within those dimensions, absence wear, I'll use it for the other clearance measurements (did that make any sence?).

Wish me luck with the hex key screw and thank you Mako and James for your help.

Over."
 
"Thanks for the correction on

"Thanks for the correction on the BBC - SBC swap James.

On the rod length/movement, I'm pretty sure that came from the BBC manual. The lube oil comes from the cam's oiling system and the random splash from the crankcase area.

You should have two connections from the pump to the carb. The 'normal' fuel line should be steel, with the inverted flare fitting. The other is the 'sight tube' - connected with a hose barb. It's purpose is to dump fuel into the carb if you have a failure internal to it. and to provide a method to inspect for this."
 
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