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New Crusader 81 throttle dead zone

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35_chris

New member
"I prchased a pair of 2008 Cru

"I prchased a pair of 2008 Crusader 8.1 MPI captains choice with cruse&sync, ZF transmissions and ZF electronic controls to repower my 1970 35 CC Cammander. After installation by a qualified yard, sea trails indicated a dead zone in throttle advance both in forward and reverse. Engines idle forward and reverse @ 650 RPM and do not gain RPM as throttles are advanced forward or reverse for approx 2 inches which causes RPM's to jump to 1,500-1,800 when throtlle advance kicks in. There is no increment between 650 up to 1,500. This causes the boat to jump rapidly in either direction and is a serious hazard in close quarter manuvering. After replacing ECM's 3 times the problem is still not resolved and the ZF controls are ruled out as the same issue occures with the ZF's disconnected. While Crusader is still working on the problem I ask if anyone on this board has knowledge of this problem. Thank You"
 
"What do you mean, it still oc

"What do you mean, it still occurs with the ZFs disconnected? How do you advance the throttle with electronic throttle bodies and the controls disconnected?"
 
"Rick, during 2 of the 3 troub

"Rick, during 2 of the 3 trouble shooting efforts by the Crusader dealer they disconnected the ZF control cable and moved the throttle positioning senser manualy with the same dead zone result (no throttle advance until the senser moved 1-2 inches and then jumped to 1,500 RPM). Crusader origionally thought it was a compatability problem with the ZF electronic controls talking to the 8.1 ECM, that's why they disconnected and moved the throttle manualy. Thanks for you question and any further thoughts are greatly appreciated. Jay"
 
"Jay,

I assumed you had the

"Jay,

I assumed you had the Cruise Command all electronic control, not the cable over electronic. The controller is irrelevant if you can operate the TCP manually.

Have they changed the TCP? It is very easy to damage one of these parts by overtraveling it when setting up a new system, especially with the micro-commander system. The problem can only be the TCP or the throttle body. I have never seen a throttle body fail and could not imagine having two bad ones on two brand new engines.

Has the dealer had their diagnostic software connected to it? This would tell them the throttle position requested and the actual throttle position achieved.

Rick"
 
"Rick,
I was told by the ins

"Rick,
I was told by the installing dealer that I needed electronic controls with the new engines and they removed both sets of Morse mechanical controlls and installed 2 sets of ZF Micro Commanders (upper and lower stations). The engines have the Crusader Cruise&Sync feature which is independant form the ZF's and appears to work fine once higher RMS are reached (cruising speed). I think is is cable over electronic as there is a cable from the ZF to the engine's throttle positioning sencer. (I'm not a mechanic so I may be wrong).

The Premier Crusader Dealer was brought into the problem by Crusader and Marysville Marine late in the season and connected the diagnostic software late this fall. There were various falt codes and they determined the ECM was the problem. Crusader sent a new reprogramed set of ECM's and after they were installed the dealer and I sea trialed the boat 2 weeks ago with absolutly no improvement.

There was no changes to the TCP's (throttle control potentiamater?) or the throttle body. I understand they disconnected the ZF cables and moved the throttles manually and got the same dead zone issue while on the computer. I beleive you have to be right about not having 2 new engines with the same problem and I understand Marrysvill is working on the problem but has not given me any specific response to resolution nor has Crusader responded to my email asking for a game plan to resolve. Very frustrating given this is a hazard to navigation and there response has been less than encouraging. I also think you diagnosis of TCP set up must be the issue as both engines have the exact same problem. One would think the Crusader engineers would have asked the dealers who came to the boat and check out all the settings and would have suggested the TCP settings be check out.

At the monent, Marrysvill is pondering the problem and have told me they will get back to me when they have some ideas. Thanks again and let me know if you have further ideas about how I can get more action from Crusader. Best Regards, Jay"
 
If you can manually move the e

If you can manually move the external throttle control which would be used if you had your original Morse controls it has to be related to either the ECM or mass air flow sensor/throttle body I would think. Highly unlikely though that it would be on both engines.

If they have the Rinda software it will give a readout of whats going on.

The only problem I find in mine is that the throttle is awfully sensitive. I installed a new Morse SL3 control thinking the cams in it were worn but that didn't help.
 
Thanks for your post Joe. Do y

Thanks for your post Joe. Do you have the same 2008 8.1 engines? The dealer who installed and set up the engines did not have the software. After the problem was discovred during first sea trial early spring of this year there have been numerous trouble shooting attempts by that dealer with no results. Finaly Crusader had the Premier Dealer connect the software and sent the data to Crusader who thought it was the ECM's. Well that was as no help. Now they are trying to come up with the answer.

The fact that I have the same prolem in both brand new engines one would think they can figure it out. I sent Rick's post to the dealer asking for comment. I'm not a happy camper given Crusader has not responded to my email asking for next steps. Let me know if you have any further thoughts. Jay
 
"Jay,

First of all your o

"Jay,

First of all your old controls would have worked fine. There was no need to change them unless you ordered the packages with electronic transmissions, then you would need the electronic controls to match.

I am assuming this occurs under a load as well as when in neutral. As Joe mentioned, this system is very sensitive and this condition under a no load condition can be normal.

Have your dealer call Crusader directly!!! If they do not give you satisfaction, call them yourself. They have an excellent customer service department and you will find them very helpful.

Attached is a bulletin Crusader sent out after several throttle problems were traced back to repeated installation problems caused by improper throttle set up. I am not throwing the installer under the bus, but if he is unfamiliar with installing these engines, he may have caused the problem. You may find this helpful.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.marineengine.com/discus/icons/mime_pdf.gif""" align=left alt=""application/pdf"">
[url=""][b]SUC-1006-01 Throttle Bulletin.PDF[/b][/url] (81.4 k)</td></tr></table></center>"
 
"Rick, thanks for the bulletin

"Rick, thanks for the bulletin, I will send it to the dealer and Marysville. I did not specify electronic controls, I was told they were needed with these 2008 8.1 engines. The transmissions are ZF with 2.71 ratio, not sure if they are electronic. The problem occures in neutral and under load which is the obvious hazard given I can not gain small incremental RPM advance above 650 for manuvering/docking. It's 650 idle forward/reverse until the shift levers are moved about 2" in either direction and then boom 1,200 - 1,500 RPM, the 1970 35 Commander jumps in either direction making control of movement very difficult. I've been a power boater for over 25 years and also own a 2006 Cabo 40 with C12 Cats. I know how a boat should behave and this is just not acceptable.

The premier dealer has spoken with Crusader about this seveeral times and I have sent Crusaders Greg Messenger emails but have not received a response to my most recent request asking for confirmation that they intend to resolve this next spring when the boat goes back in for the season. I have talked to Jeff at Marysvill Marine their mid west distributer and they seem very perplexed although they are working in it. Do you have a contact phone # for Crusader? If so, I will call them. Thaks much, Jay"
 
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