AntiFreeze Flush or Not

"I love a good controversy.

"I love a good controversy.

Looks like we have two distinct camps here on the forum regarding winterizing.
One side says just drain ALL the water and you will be fine.

The other swears that to be safe you have to first drain the water, then flush it all with RV anti-freeze.

Any more opinions out there??
Anyone ever frozen a block after doing EITHER technique?

Rod"

"Cracked blocks occur because

"Cracked blocks occur because the water has no place to expand.what little that might be left just expands like water in a icecube tray,Leaving no room to expand it causes a pressure crack.not draining everything first,leaves doubt you have sufficiant freeze protecion using just the "muff method""

"Being a true northerner, I op

"Being a true northerner, I opt for the draining after warming up the engine and leaving it at that. The warmth of the engine will dissipate the small amount of water that's left inside. A few small puddles won't harm anything when they freeze. In the days before antifreeze, yes I remember, we used to use straight water in the vehicles and farm machinery during the day and just drain it out at night.
Bert"

"Here's a few other things

"Here's a few other things to consider regarding corrosion. The rate of corrosion of any material is temperature dependant. The hotter the material, the faster it corrodes. If it's cold enough for water to freeze, the rate of corrossion of iron is dramatically less than when the engine is at operating temperature. That doesn't mean it isn't happening, but it is significantly reduced.
Another term for corrosion is oxidation. In order for iron to turn into iron oxide (rust) is needs oxygen. If the susceptable material is not in contact with O2, there will be no corrosion. So putting the engine in an antifreeze bath will certainly eliminate or nearly eliminate corrosion... while it's in lay-up... i.e., while it's cold, and the rate of corrosion is almost insignificant anyway.
I it was think Rod that also mentioned in another thread that when bare iron first starts to undergo general corrosion, a very hard and nearly impermiable oxide layer forms on the surface and sheilds the underlaying material from oxidation. The key to success in preservation here is promoting general corrosion and not pitting corrosion. Material submersed in an ionic solution (i.e., salt water) will tend to exibit pitting corrosion over general, especially when it's hot. Lake, river and tap water aren't completely free of minerals and ions. Granted, it's a lot less concentrated, but they are still there. Warm, dry air, on the otherhand is virtually free of ions, but plentyful in oxygen... a perfect environment to promote general vs. pitting corrosion. The only problem is you never get all the water out of an engine block and all the little pockets where there is water and air are going to corrode relatively faster (but once cold, "relatively faster" is still going to be very slight), unless you can come up with some kind of air-dry system and leave it running until all the moisture is removed. Aside from Big Navy, I don't think anybody does this.
Conslusion...
You're not completly pissing in the wind by filling your block with anti-freeze. But in the big sceme of things, it's probably not making that big of a difference WRT corrosion or protecting from freezing as compared to leaving it dry. Regions that don't go below freezing and stay there for the whole winter are the exception, and would probably see some benefit from anit-freeze lay-up."

I'm only on my 8th year of

I'm only on my 8th year of having any experience in winterizing here in Iowa. I have only done the muff method and left all drains/hoses open or disconnected. This year I have two boats to do and will be using the same method.
Never had a problem here but after reading all the info regarding this am starting to consider going further with the AF.

Badger

"When in doubt, use Anti Freez

"When in doubt, use Anti Freeze. Better safe than sorry. Different situations require different cures. Al W."

"For those who wish to use AF

"For those who wish to use AF flush, I read somewhere a simple procedure that avoids most of the mess.
Use a standard muff with a short length of garden hose (maybe 5 feet) stuck in a 5 gallon pail. Fill the pail with 3-4 gallons of pink AF and start her up.
The pump will quickly pull the AF thru the entire cooling system. Once you see it coming out the exhaust you are done.
If I was doing this I would still drain all water drains first.
Its important that the muffs fully seal against the drive leg to make this work. Use a little grease if in doubt. Obviously the muffs have to fully cover the water pickup holes.

Rod"

"Badger...

I'd suggest

"Badger...

I'd suggest you keep doing whats been working for you. If it aint broke...., but the mercury service manual does say not to leave the drain plugs out during extended storage periods. They claim that rust and corrosion will occure on the threads where the plugs go into manifolds, elbows and block, making it hard to get a good seal next spring when you put them back in. They also suggest to put some Quicksilver Perfect Seal on the plugs when re-installing. (or something similar)

BTW, my southern Ontario boat gets drained then anti-freezed.

Wrench"

"<[img]"http://www.marineengin

"
Thanks Wrench........We have only had our 2001 Tahoe for a couple of months but have had the 1990 fourwinns for about eight years. Never did the AF method with the 1990 omc but I'm realizing now that the newer 2001 merc is going to be much different to do. Have not even gotten to the winterize section in the manual for the new boat, just can't seem to get myself to put it to bed yet. Have them both in a very well insulated garage with the vehicles now outside. I will follow the manual when the time comes and ask here to you guys if I run into questions or concerns. Thanks for all the great advice and ideas, very good site for us non pro boaters.

Mark"

"[b]"Anyone ever frozen a

""Anyone ever frozen a block after doing EITHER technique?"

Ayuh,...

I guess that All of my blocks are Frozen, quite often throughout the course of a winter, down to -35° to -40°...
But,...
Cast iron,+ Air react to each other Just Fine...

Nope,... I've never Frozen,+ Split a block, Not 1 that's been Drained...

On the various forums that I visit,...
In the Spring when the Frozen, Cracked block threads start showing up,...
The most common denomintator seems to being doing the antifreeze flush method,...
But Not Draining the system 1st....

When cold antifreeze hits the T-Stat, it closes,...
Then it's nothing but Water in the block..."

"I need some clarification ple

"I need some clarification please. Just did the af flush today. I did drain first, but got no water from port drain plug. i rammed it but only hit solid metal.

My questions is:

If i did drain the block and ran af through the muffs and an af flush bottle kit, even though it was cold, wouldn't it have to fill the block anyway or is the block running dry (unlikely, i think)

Now that i think of it, I drained, then fw flushed, then ran af. Should i now drain the af or do you think the block got filled. How can i be sure?"

"Tom, I'm not sure what to

"Tom, I'm not sure what to tell you about your port side drain. Either the solid metal you were hitting was really a huge scale build up in there and you have to work harder at digging it out, or there is a blockage somewhere up stream in the engine not allowing coolant to get to that area, or ....?
Was this drain plug in the block or in the exhaust manifold? Is there a possibility that the water from that area drained out of one of the other drain plugs that was allready removed?

I do my block as such...

1) take out all drain plugs (5 on my engine)and remove the hoses from the t-stat housing. Wiggle, lift, bend the hoses around a bit to work all the water out of the low spots.
2) put it all back together.
3) muff the AF into it.
4) take out all drain plugs and remove the hoses from the t-stat housing again to drain the AF out of it. Put it all back together.
Save the AF to use for next year. Check the strength of it for next year to make sure it didn't get too dilluted when mixing with left over water in the block.
Now, the block is empty and what ever may be left in the corners is antifreeze. When you do your fresh water flush in the spring before it goes to the lake, theres almost no AF to flush down your driveway, and you have AF left over to use next year.
I also throw a pail of water into the bilge area after I'm all done to clean out the residule AF in there. The book says to make sure the engine is as level as possible to get a good drain on the block, but I also make sure the front of the boat is up some so the water/AF will drain out the back and not try to scoot up front under the floor/carpet (depending on your boat)

Now you've done both "the antifreeze" AND "the drain the block" methods.

Wrench"

"Thanks wrench. I think I am

"Thanks wrench. I think I am going to have at it again this weekend. If I can get soem flow, i will drain the other plugs also. My process was as follows:

Started on the port side. opened the blue plug on elbow for exhaust. tried the block plug (definitely in block. a few inches behing engine mount. pretty much center of the block low toward the oil pan). Then did the cooler hose. The did same on starboard, minus the cooler hose.

Went back to port because now i was a little nervous that i left water in the block. Tried again to no avail. That prompted my decision to run AF through.

I guess what pisses me off the most i that my engine was supposedly stripped and rebuilt in July. I would think that they would have seen something wrong, wouldn't you? Also, now i am wondering if the jumping temp gauge issue i had since the rebuild has to do with a blockage inside a supposed newly rebuilt engine. Could that hole seal up in 3 months? I put maybe 10 breakin hour on it.

Also, I did ram the hell out of that hole with a small pointy screwdriver. I couldn't get a drop out."

"...ram the hell out of th

"...ram the hell out of that hole with a small pointy screwdriver."

I use an 8" piece of heavy solder and bend the end like a large curved #7. Insert the curved end and move it to the left and then to the right as far as you can while the water runs out. A coat hanger will also work and probe deeply in all directions.

Use some compressed air in the hole; it may knock loose the crud that seems to have caked itself into a plug.