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knuckle47

knuckle47

Advanced Contributor
"OK....Took of intake manifold

"OK....Took of intake manifold, 4 bent and 3 broken pushrods..... WHat could cause this other than welded shut valves?

Here is my plan...Good or Bad?

Replace all new lifters and pushrods, crank engine to observe valve train operations...IF OK, reassemble.....What do you think? AL"
 
"Al,
Sorry to hear that.My

"Al,
Sorry to hear that.My guess is the timing chain jumped and put valves into the top of the pistons.Would need a compression test to check for a bent valve.A breaker bar at the front of the engine going back and forth to check slop in the chain is not a bad idea, I think.I would think there is trouble inside that timing cover...Todd"
 
"Thanks Todd,

In one respec

"Thanks Todd,

In one respect, IF that occured,( and I am intimately familiar with all the movement the engine made in the last month or so and I never felt like that had happened BUT...I am no expert) where did the slop in the chain come from. IS IT POSSIBLE, water in the cylinders can cause this event? Hydrolock?...What if the timing chain is ok, is looseness the only thing to look for or is there a measurable mark I can find by measuring tdc on a piston and finding that mark on the timing marks? When the engine did run, it started and ran at rpm (although low ..under 1500 intentionally) would a jump in timing let it run or start as easily?

I think I am getting a headache thinking of all the possibilities
"
 
I saw this happen once in a 69

I saw this happen once in a 69 camaro with a 327 it turned on to be the rockers were not gapped right just a thought.

B
 
"Goimg in the water this weeke

"Goimg in the water this weekend with my Chris-Craft 33' Hope I won't have any of your problem(s). Been following your odyssey since last fall, Will make an interesting book....How about pulling out this engine and re-built it? Hard to get out? This will be a faster fix than just trying for weeks to find what's wrong after the description of the problems described.
Best of luck,"
 
"Al, it's starting to look

"Al, it's starting to look like my neighbor's 31 Bertram saga with one diff-he has fiberglass fuel tanks. As far as I know you have aluminum. Stu"
 
"Thanks Guys...Henry, I hope n

"Thanks Guys...Henry, I hope not !!

Stu, it was a mix I THINK...Before removing the intake I had opened the valve covers as Todd told me he was able to. This worked and I am SO Thankful for the tip...I saw a few rods and rockers off and the rockers turned as they are loose...
Once I had removed the intake manifold I found 2 broken 3" pieces of pushrod in the lifter valley. WITH ALL OF THIS, the engine ran...popping a burping but it ran.

My dilema is : YES, removing the engine is a PITA as the vessel would need to be removed from the slip. THEN, getting the engine out and getting it in the garage is another PITA....plus the return back to the boat

SURELY...Working on it would be a breeze on an engine stand and being able to access ALL the stuff that would just bust my (you know) for a few days would be eliminated. I just know that it would take me longer in the garage to go inside, get a drink, have a snack, turn a bolt, get stuck...watch Gilligans Island or Captain Ron, go back out....Get the idea? (Gilligans' Island ? )

I am really hoping to put in new lifters and push rods, watch the action of the valve train and IF that is OK...go ahead an reassemble it.

IF THE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE folks on the forum think this is a bad idea, PLEASE let me know.

As Always, I am certainly grateful for superior knowledge and skills...this is how I have learned."
 
"OK, HERE IS THE DUMB QUESTION

"OK, HERE IS THE DUMB QUESTION OF THE DAY: Which of the two engines is the RIGHT Hand Rotation and the LEFT Hand Rotation.

My Engines are reverse mounted with V-drives. AS I am AT THE EXTREME BACK of the boat looking to the bow, the left side engine cranks CLOCKWISE as I look at the alternator...The Right side engine cranks COUNTER-CLOCKWISE as I look at the alternator from the transom.

The manual says the LEFT HAND ROTATION ENGINE has a timing a chain, RIGHT hand does not."
 
"Al:

After running my crusa

"Al:

After running my crusader 454's a short while following a cam shaft replacement, my motor started running rough. I removed the rocker covers and discovered a bent pushrod and another one loose but not bent. As I had just torqued the rockers down a day earlier, I concluded that the lock nuts were not holding. After a discussion with a knowledgeable mechanic (who agreed they can lose their locking power, I ordered new push rods, lifers, and locking nuts. These nuts can and will back off, leaving enough clearence for a push rod to escape and get bent or slammed. So get new nuts--they are cheap insurance."
 
"Hi Tom, I have a bag of 16 ri

"Hi Tom, I have a bag of 16 right here and they ARE 7/16 stud nuts for 454's. All of this is great speculation BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM...

Last week, in order to INSURE I was ready to launch the boat, I started both engines after removing the raw water fan belts on each. Both started but I shut the (NOW SCREWED UP) starboard one down within 20 seconds or so since the ENTIRE season prior was fine, OK...good news, that one runs too. I needed to know that the one I had just completed would actually run...especially since all I had to do to check it was turn the key 18" away from the other one.

DID IT MAYBE run backwards a turn or so after I shut it down JUST enought to suck in some winter freeze protection fluid, hydrolock and then F up? There would be NO indication ANYthing was starting to break down. It was TRULY a very sudden event. Since It was SO sudden, after running briefly....what happened?

You should have seen the look on my face when the valve covers came up and I saw the rocker arms turned with no pushrods in some and a "s" shaped bend in one of the others."
 
"Sorry for the delay,Al.Had so

"Sorry for the delay,Al.Had some things going on.A lot of questions you have to answer in one night.Look at the firing order of each engine.One will be 18436572...this is the LEFT hand rotation which is what most people have, or the most common.This engine should have a timing chain.The other engine is the RIGHT hand and I think Crusader changes it's direction by installing timing gears in place of the chain.Never had one apart to be sure, but from the way the parts are turning,this is what I think you will find.If this is the engine in question,there is a lot going on inside that timing cover.Did you winterize this engine yourself and was it run on land to do this?Hydro-lock can bend rods,but with this many I do not think you could start it as it would be just that...locked.
Here is what I think I would do if I was you.Only my opinion.Since you are this far into the engine,you want to not have issues all year,mess up parts not knowing whats up for sure,I would pull those heads as I would want those heads checked.Now you can see the top of the pistons as well to make sure all is well there.Only a few more bolts from where you are at now.If there is no signs of any damage in this area, your bottom end should be just fine.I would drop that oil pan if there is enough room,to check for loose metal and pull the timing cover and replace whichever is there.All this can be done in the slip.I know its a bending and carrying on,you have proven to be a man with determination to have things right.My take of this is that the one stone you do not roll over will be the one that hits you next week.Once right is better than 2 almosts.You always do have the option of pulling the boat at that fee also, but the engine is still at the same place.Keep in touch-just trying to help,Al....Todd"
 
"Al,
Was just peeping into t

"Al,
Was just peeping into the Mercruiser site and found a thread..."why bent rods"...sounds like your issue as well.I think they are telling this guy pretty much the same advice I am giving.Only thing is that I still think it could be timing related and would rather lead you to over checking, than not enough....Todd"
 
"Todd / Al,
Is the 454 m

"Todd / Al,
Is the 454 model 350 an interference motor? I know alot of the 4 valve per cylinder motors are but unsure of the big block 16 valve GM."
 
"Todd, I know this makes sense

"Todd, I know this makes sense but it is truly defeating from the "enthusiam" I would have had if it just started. Sort of anti-climatic. In speaking to the marina, he explained that this is the engine with gears and no chain. As you said, I am THIS DEEP....I sure as heck could finish by Saturday IF the valves are OK as I have just gotten all the parts to do it ALL, Except manifolds and a valve job. I even have new elbows right here along with gaskets, pushrods, lifters...etc.

The ONE THING that keeps me trying to NOT pull the heads is removing the manifolds, previously a 5 weekend job Until the BFH entered the picture. I am REALLY trying to avoid that scene. AND...Once I get to the point of destroying the manifolds, I have to remove the heads, extract all the broken studs and junk, It is a nightmare that I KNOW WILL BE WORSE IF SOMETHING ELSE IS WRONG...so I cannot argue the point intelligently....The previous owner installed a 55 gallon poly water tank between the hull and the outside manifold reducing all available space to about 3 inches. That part is going to really be a pain knowing the situation previously. I will get started early tomorrow morning (Friday) Don't call me at work...They think I'm sick !

As for the 4 valve head...this is not one of those. I have 16 rocker arm nuts brand new ...2 for each cylinder 1 intake 1 exhaust."
 
"Found it in this site under t

"Found it in this site under the heading Mercruiser called .."Why Bent Rods"...As a positive thinking person that I am, I would call this a next issue.Let the celebrations continue on the other as what you have done is working.Sorry to say that when this engine is OK there will be something else as there always will be,all we ask is they come with breaks in between.hahahaha...I think you have the facts,and if you are not pulling heads, do me a favor and run a compression test before starting as that will let you know a lot and even if a bent rod.Check the head studs thoroughly for wear on the sides from the other rockers cutting and inspect the studs closely to see if any lifted at all.Heading out for the weekend so will not be back till Monday, let me know how you are making out.Keep a smile...Todd"
 
"Al:

Suggest doing as you s

"Al:

Suggest doing as you said; replace the lifters (using lots of break in lube), push rods, and any questionable rocker arms. BUT before doing anything, take a hammer and whack each of the valves squarely on the ends (rockers off). All of the valves should open easily and pop right back closed. If ANY of them appear sluggish, pull the heads and get a valve job done.

Knowing that engine's notorious reputation for sucking in ater (it's a 454, right?) I suspect you have a few rusty exhaust valves.

Jeff"
 
""All of the valves should

""All of the valves should open easily and pop right back closed. If ANY of them appear sluggish, pull the heads and get a valve job done."
X2 on what Jeff said. My neighbor with the 31 Bertram just kept putting in pushrods, starting the engines, and taking them apart again. Half of his valves glued to the guides from the good old ethanol/fiberglass tank combo. It's better than crazy glue. Stu"
 
"Al,
I was just asking if

"Al,
I was just asking if it was an interference motor. If the pistons would make contact with an open valve at TDC. Some motors are and some are not. Just didn't know about the crusader 454. If it is not an interference motor then you don't munch valves when they are stuck open and pistons still going up an down."
 
"Well after all is said and do

"Well after all is said and done....It IS a valve problem. Tapping on the valves is like driving a nail into a 2x4. It just goes deeper and deeper with each tap.

I was able to remove 3 of the 8 manifold bolts on the easy side. It was at this point on the other motor I started cutting the heads off of the bolts in an attempt to remove the manifolds. TO NO AVAIL...I ultimately used the BIG F%$#ing HAMMER to smash the heck out of the manifold so I could get to the last row of head bolts and remove the head....

IS IT A BAD IDEA to just go STRAIGHT TO THE BIG F%$#ing HAMMER, blow the manifolds to hell, get the heads off AND THEN remove the bolt remnants before it get to the machine shop?

The corrosion factor is too much to deal with in such limited space. Thos 9/16 heads are almost down to 1/2"."
 
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