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WTB knock sensor kit for old school SBC

tuna_man

Regular Contributor
A friend has had a couple of catastrophic engine failures, (pistons) seems to be detonation as the issue. hes currently rebuilding it again and would like to fit some sort of knock detector system or ideally auto retard aswell.

its a reverse rotation 350 SBC running MSD Street Fire ignition

any suggestions?
 
He is doing something wrong. IE: he is building with "Made in China" parts, Wrong initial set up, wrong cam, wrong timing curve. Not installing the pistons with the correct orientation for a counter rotation sbc. Then again you are south of the equator, so does this matter....JOKING! It does matter.

The list can go on and on.

There are literally thousands of marine SBC engines running with out a knock module.
 
2x on doing something wrong....and I'd say millions w/o the electronics.

If he's hell bent on max timing, then he would be better off abandoning the 'old school' and go full tilt on an ECU implementation....and the port injectors, too.
 
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A friend has had a couple of catastrophic engine failures, (pistons) seems to be detonation as the issue.
If he is using the GM Full Dished pistons, it would be helpful if he knew that these are prone to detonation. There are much better choices to be had!

hes currently rebuilding it again and would like to fit some sort of knock detector system or ideally auto retard as well.
As Chris and Mark said, there are many of these running without!
Suggest to him that he stick with an ignition system that offers the correct advance curve for Marine use!


its a reverse rotation 350 SBC
Is he installing the pistons in the correct orientation? i.e., wrist pin offset correct for a RH Reverse Rotation engine.
The front and rear main seals must also be correct for a RH Rev Rotation engine.


running MSD Street Fire ignition
Any automotive ignition system is going to offer an incorrect ignition advance..... not to mention that these will not be "ignition source protected".

any suggestions?

 
Consider how many ch-zillion (very large number) of inboard engines there out there for over a century that don't have and never had a knock sensor (and didn't detonate themselves to death).

Jeff
 
PCK, Full dished pistons..........................Again!

Timing PCK again

I wonder,

How would one determine that a high quality, fully adjustable ignition assuming it is an Automotive one will not work for marine (other that the obvious marine designation for spark arrest and waterproofing)

Oh, PCK knows
 
Must admit I was expecting those exact responses. No problem I agree with you all.

How ever I must repeat my initial Q, does anyone have experience with such a kit?

This guy is doing all HE can to get rid of the detonation, but also wants peace of mind as he cant hear it happening as engines are below deck, twin shaft drive 350SBC in a 28 Bertram.

Mark
 
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How ever I must repeat my initial Q, does anyone have experience with such a kit?
In a kit form, apparently not.

This guy is doing all HE can to get rid of the detonation, but also wants peace of mind as he cant hear it happening as engines are below deck,
Mark, detonation can be very destructive, and the cause is often mis-diagnosed.
And yes, it is not always audible, and in an enclosed engine bay can be difficult to detect.

Your friend first needs to rid himself of the GM FD style pistons in his next build.
As mentioned, this piston makes the combustion chamber prone to detonation, especially in a Marine application.
Detonation in the SBC marine version is compounded by marine engine loads (referred to as Marine Load/Ignition Induced Detonation) not to be confused with "Pre-Ignition".
Companies like Mercruiser, Volvo Penta, PCM, Crusader, Marine Power, etc, hold back on the ignition advance in order to combat detonation with this build.

See this thread beginning at post #7.
http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?394668-V6-to-V8-engine-swap


Regarding the MSD Street Fire ignition (of which I would not use), I believe that these are mechanical advancing systems. I don't know how he could incorporate a Knock-Sensor that would retard the mechanically advancing system.
Knock sensors are used with the EST systems whereby the computer controls the advance rate.

What is your friend setting up for an advance curve?
Is he using automotive specs?
Is he using a SBC Marine curve?
Is he playing around with the flyweight return springs and/or stop bushings?
Has he plotted out the curve in graph form?

One article suggests;
"the Street Fire Distributor has an advance curve from the factory of 18° coming in fully at 3200 rpm."
If that is accurate, and if he uses a BASE advance of 10*, that equals 28* @ 3,200 RPM, of which should be OK if the curve is rather linear.
Note that automotive curves and marine curves are not the same!

I would also suggest that during his next build,
he uses harmonic balancers that are engrave indexed up to approx 35* BTDC, and then verify the markings as to locate TRUE #1 TDC.
He will want to do this to both harmonic balancers...... (one for the Std LH rotation engine and one for the RH rotation engine).





Perhaps read a few articles by Jeff Smith, Dennis Moore, Larry Carley and/or John Erb (chief engineer for KB Performance Pistons) regarding SBC combustion chamber design. These men are authorities on the High Performance SBC, not that you want to build a HP SBC for marine use, but the basics will apply to a SBC Marine build.


 
Must admit I was expecting those exact responses. No problem I agree with you all.

How ever I must repeat my initial Q, does anyone have experience with such a kit?

This guy is doing all HE can to get rid of the detonation, but also wants peace of mind as he cant hear it happening as engines are below deck, twin shaft drive 350SBC in a 28 Bertram.

Mark

If he can find a Mercruiser Thunderbolt V with Knock it will do what he wants.

page_8.jpg
 
PCK, Full dished pistons..........................Again!

Timing PCK again

I wonder,

How would one determine that a high quality, fully adjustable ignition assuming it is an Automotive one will not work for marine (other that the obvious marine designation for spark arrest and waterproofing)

Oh, PCK knows

PCK???
 
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Ricardo thank you for your very detailed response.

Ive read thru your words and links and it will take some time to take all it in. wow, ill read it over again.

The quench effect thing is difficult to take in by written words but im starting to get it, your link had pictures as opposed to when you first mentioned it to me 10 years ago. My challenge is passing it on.

one of the threads I laughed, it seemed to get highjacked by other engine swaps.

Its too late to get my friend to change pistons, the valve relief type were pressed onto pins 2 days ago. Anyway ill tell him why they fail again soon.
 
Mark, your original question appeared to be asking if there was a knock sensor “kit“ available for use with the MSD Street Fire.
What Chris has suggested would be a complete Thunderbolt V EST system.


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I'd agree with Chris that a TB-V system is the easiest way to get a knock sensor .... an alternative would be a full up MSTS system (made by GM).

That particular MSD box has no spark retard function so I don't see it ever working with a knock sensor ....
 
TBV would be the only way to add this functionality but you also need a complete engine harness that has the wiring for knock sensor and knock module connections. Not all TBvs have knock sensors like my 5.0. I looked at adding as well but gave up when I realized I needed a new harness
 
TBV would be the only way to add this functionality but you also need a complete engine harness that has the wiring for knock sensor and knock module connections. Not all TBvs have knock sensors like my 5.0. I looked at adding as well but gave up when I realized I needed a new harness

With the wiring Diagram you can pretty much adapt this system to what ever you have with a few mods.
 
With the wiring Diagram you can pretty much adapt this system to what ever you have with a few mods.

my concern was getting the harness connectors for the knock sensor and knock module are these off the shelf GM parts that are available ? Also couldn’t find a 5.0 carb ICM that came with a knock module from factory or do they all have knock logic regardless of wether they came with a knock system ?
 
Too many people out there thinking they can apply their automobile engine knowledge to a marine engine. While it may look like a regular old chevy V8 on the outside, on the inside it's more like an industrial engine but with some differences to make it seawater safe.
These things are designed to be under constant heavy load. The more you open the throttle, the more the load and it never lets up. With a car yes, you put a lot of stress on it when accelerating but once you're up to speed, the horsepower demand falls off a lot.
The answer for marine power is displacement. The bigger the engine, the more stress it can handle. Attempting to increase power with higher compression, high lift cams, is the exact opposite of what you should do. To get good power from a small block, you really need to lower compression and add a supercharger. This is often out of the question for the casual boater as it's crazy expensive to get a marine supercharger installed. This has unfortunate downsides in regard to engine longevity as the top-end stresses are dramatically increased.
So, to solve your buddy's problem, he should rebuild it as close to factory stock as possible, tune it for fuel efficiency and go boating.
If he wants it to go faster, his future must have big blocks in it.
However, let's temper expectations with reality. Speed depends on so many factors; rough water, hull shape, cargo and passenger load, tankage,superstructure wind resistance, blah blah blah. Even if he were to magically snap his fingers and have a pair of 8.1 L engines materialize in the engine bay, the boat may not go a great deal faster than what it does at present with the two 350s. It will def plane out quicker but the props only spin so fast and the hull lifts only so much.
And let's not forget that this all comes with a higher fuel consumption hit.
Again, stock is best. Mercruiser spent millions developing reliable performance in these engines.
 
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Too many people out there thinking they can apply their automobile engine knowledge to a marine engine.
Some aspects will cross over! The Key is in knowing which will and which will NOT!

These things are designed to be under constant heavy load. The more you open the throttle, the more the load and it never lets up. With a car yes, you put a lot of stress on it when accelerating but once you're up to speed, the horsepower demand falls off a lot.
Precisely!

The answer for marine power is displacement. The bigger the engine, the more stress it can handle. Attempting to increase power with higher compression, high lift cams, is the exact opposite of what you should do.
No disagreement there!

So, to solve your buddy's problem, he should rebuild it as close to factory stock as possible,
I completely disagree with that.
GM uses the full dished pistons in their alleged Marine Engines due to the bean counters!
One piston fits all 8 bores, they are inexpensive to produce, and the guy installing them onto the connecting rods can be drunk while doing so.

No engineer in his right mind would spec out this piston for a true SBC Marine Engine!
Once again, the bean counters win over that of the engineers.

I would encourage you to read a few articles by
Jeff Smith, Dennis Moore, Larry Carley and/or John Erb (chief engineer for KB Performance Pistons) regarding SBC combustion chamber design.
Granted, most of their articles have been written for automotive use, yet the basics can be easily applied to the SBC Marine version.



If he wants it to go faster, his future must have big blocks in it.
No where in this thread do I read where the OP's friend wants to go faster.
He wants to avoid detonation.


And let's not forget that this all comes with a higher fuel consumption hit.
A well built SBC, with the correct pistons, will offer slightly better fuel economy.

Again, stock is best.
If regarding the SBC, completely disagree with that statement!
I would again encourage anyone to educate themselves regarding SBC marine load detonation, what causes it and what the marine industry does to combat it while sacrificing torque.


This image should make it very clear as to the quench/squish effect, and as to why the GM full dished piston doesn't work as well.
The Q/E build also greatly reduces the likelihood of detonation.

Look closely and carefully at the black dotted lines that represent the dished area of the piston deck.
Now contrast that with the cylinder head's quench surface!

On the left side, this is the undesirable area where the gasses are given a place to hide, of which leads to a greater potential for detonation.
On the right side, these gasses are not given an area to hide, of which greatly reduces the potential for detonation.

Quench and Squish area explained 4.jpg


With this build, ignition TA can be increased some, therefor making for a better LPCP.
It's all about LPCP occurring where it needs to be!





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oh for f88k's sake must you constantly be upping your post count? Now you're smarter than all the engineers at Mercruiser?
Clearly the engine in question is constantly blowing up because dude thinks he can put car pistons in it with higher c/r but it's making the thing preignite like crazy. One would only do this if one were looking for more speed.

Granted, most of their articles have been written for automotive use, yet the basics can be easily applied to the SBC Marine version.

...Credibility gap the size of the Grand Canyon opens up and swallows this entire thread.
 
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This is great, but it does not apply to your average marine use engine. Low compression dish pistons mean you can run these mass produced engines anywhere on the planet where only crappy fuel is available.

There a thousands of these Full dish pistons in use on Carbed engines with no issues.

A marine squish build on a MPI engine will result is a damaged engine unless the builder has the ability to change the AFR in the ecm/pcm....



I copied this from another post about this topic.


"I feel a correct compression ratio for the octane of the fuel being used is more important then a really tight quench. However, if you're running slightly higher compression then optimal, the tight quench engine will be less likely to detonate. Engine building is always a compromise, even at the highest levels of motorsports. OEM's often compromise based on parts availability that is usually dictated by cost. There are a LOT of BBC and SBC marine engines running around from the factory with the pistons .025 down the bore and a .040 or .050 gasket without any issues. A good example of a GM engine designed this way is the ZZ4 crate engine. It is a spec engine for a class of Marathon jet boat racing and is very widely used. They get run for hours at WOT on pump gas, race after race, with amazing reliability (when tuned correctly).
In order to be legal after an overhaul they have to be reassembled with all original OEM components. When I did my first one years ago I was horrified. The pistons were .028 down and they used a .051 thick gasket. I almost couldn't bring myself to put it back together that way... Surely it was going to detonate itself to death!! But, it had already run two complete seasons like that so I figured it Might be ok.. I can only assume they went with the thick gasket to drop the compression a little because of the 58cc head and it seams to work just fine all over the world. I don't know if it would make more power with a tighter gasket 'cause I never tried it but I would be surprised if it made much difference. They already make decent power and don't take a ton of spark timing but, I bet if the compression was just a tad higher it would have some issues without tightening up the quench."
 
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oh for f88k's sake must you constantly be upping your post count?
Have you noticed that each time that you post, you also gain one post count?
Again, I do not know why anyone would be threatened or bothered by post counts. Post counts only indicate one's participation.


Now you're smarter than all the engineers at Mercruiser?
Not at all.... but I'm certainly more concerned than the GM bean counters are!

Clearly the engine in question is constantly blowing up because dude thinks he can put car pistons in it with higher c/r
No where have I mentioned the use of "car pistons"! And by the way...... what is a car piston?
I would ask you to please slow down and read what I post more slowly and more thoroughly.

Also, please re-read the OP's comments and questions.

but it's making the thing preignite like crazy.
I have not mentioned Pre-Ignition.
Pre-Ignition and Detonation are not the same phenomena.

One would only do this if one were looking for moore speed.
If you are talking about a Q/E build, that would be incorrect!
 
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Sorry dude but the pile of banana peels that you're standing on offers little in the way of confidence or stability. Just being all mad saying I'm wrong just makes you look pathetic. Please, as you say, re-read my responses. You only come on the Mercruiser forum to start flame wars with Ghost and Chris and me.
 
Ok thank you Chris, this exactly answers my original question.

ill pass it on to my detonation friend.

Regards
Mark

Mark,

First I hope you see this post and sorry for all the non associated garbage to the issue.

I have a question about the boat, the 28 Bertram. Does this boat hull still have fiberglass fuel tanks? If yes, this may be the issue.
 
Mark, your original question appeared to be asking if there was a knock sensor “kit“ available for use with the MSD Street Fire.
What Chris has suggested would be a complete Thunderbolt V EST system.


.

Yes your right rick Chris's answer wasn't what I asked for guess I jumped the gun when I said it was. Sorry mate. But its a good solution. I guess that's what I meant. Anyway I doubt if detonation guy will fork out the Bradmans for the TB5 x 2. All I can do is lead him to water.
 
Yes your right rick Chris's answer wasn't what I asked for guess I jumped the gun when I said it was. Sorry mate. But its a good solution. I guess that's what I meant. Anyway I doubt if detonation guy will fork out the Bradmans for the TB5 x 2. All I can do is lead him to water.

Mark,
I don't know if you missed this question in the previous post.....

I have a question about the boat, the 28 Bertram. Does this boat hull still have fiberglass fuel tanks? If yes, this may be the issue.
 
Yes you're right rick Chris's answer wasn't what I asked for guess I jumped the gun when I said it was. Sorry mate. But its a good solution. I guess that's what I meant. Anyway I doubt if detonation guy will fork out the Bradmans for the TB5 x 2. All I can do is lead him to water.

Mark, that is nice of you to try and help your friend out.
At the same time, that would be frustrating to see that he is not willing to give the TBV system a try, and/or go with a better piston profile.

And by the way, contrary to what our one member alludes to, the Q/E build is NOT necessarily a High Performance build, nor is it intended to increase S C/R (although this can be done).
The reason for this build is to reduce Detonation potential, and to better position the LPCP.

Chris posted this:
"However, if you're running slightly higher compression then optimal, the tight quench engine will be less likely to detonate."

Please note that a Q/E cannot be obtained with the GM Full Dished pistons. There is NO quench surface with this piston, only a small quench band that has almost ZERO value!



As for Chris's question re; the fiberglass fuel tanks, E-10 fuel causes an issue with these fiberglass tanks.
The resins used during these periods can be broken down by today's Ethanol laden gasoline, allowing a portion of it to be pulled into solution and then burned.

Chris no doubt knows more about this than I do.... but it may be possible that this resin laden solution lowers the octane rating, of which would definitely contribute to Detonation, especially with the GM Full Dished pistons.

I think that it's worth asking your friend if his fuel tanks are fiberglass!


I've also seen other types of damage that this solution causes as it contaminates engine oil.
 
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Rick, Get off the full dish pistons BS... Its not the problem.

If you are going to quote something I said "I copied from another thread", Don't just quote what fits your narrative.
 
If the tanks have been exposed to ethanol fuel then there's not much that can be done except to replace the tanks. The E10 will have attacked the fiberglass resin and gelcoat to the extent that it will have lost a good deal of structural integrity. The tanks cannot be coated or otherwise repaired due to the failure of the resins...adding a coating would fall off quickly. Any fuel that's in these tanks is no good because it's full of the dissolved phthalates that will precipitate out of the gasoline emulsion and coat the intake valves, pistons, and gunk up the exhaust valves. He will be tearing down this rebuild in a matter of weeks.
The entire fuel delivery system will need to go in the trash along with the carbs and/or injectors.
This is hard news to swallow if true and the boat owner will be facing the Big Bill that many other Bertram and Hatteras owners have had to cope with.
Unsure about Oz but here in the USA insurance has typically not covered this catastrophe.
 
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