2002 Honda 225BF: Will not shift into Forward, will not start.

My throttle has been getting more difficult to move as the season has gone on. Now it will not shift into forward and the engine will not turn over. It appears like it will shift into neutral (the prop spins
freely in both directions) and into reverse (the prop spins in only one direction), but it will not go into forward (I have tried some force, but I don't want to break it). When I press the button on the
bottom of the throttle (to put it into neutral), the throttle moves freely into reverse and forward and I can see the cables on the engine move freely, so I don't think it the cable. When its in neutral and I turn the key, the starter will not engage.

Any ideas?

Brian

On the starting issue, the first thing I would look at is the neutral safety switch to make sure it is in place and operating correctly. The plunger for the NS switch rides on a cam that the throttle linkage connects to. Have someone work the throttle and observe whether or not the plunger returns to the notch in the cam. It could be stuck closed, or it could have come loose.

Chawk, Thanks again for your help.

I removed the wire/hose cover and got access to the link rod and shift arm. Once I removed the throttle shift cable from the link rod, the throttle moved freely, so I don't think its a problem with the throttle or shift cable. With a lot of effort, I was able to move the link rod/shift arm and shift the engine to Forward, Neutral and Reverse. When it was in Neutral, the engine turned over. So, it appears the shift arm/shaft is seizing.

Any ideas on where to go from here?

Brian

Okay, you are now in an area where I don't have any significant personal experience. Maybe Mike or another tech will jump in.

I checked the shop manual, and it looks like your shift cable could have come out of adjustment. Here is the procedure they outline. (Chapter 16)

1. Detach the shift cable from the shift arm. Move the shift arm to the point where the prop will spin freely in either direction. You may need a second person to turn the prop while you are moving the shift arm. (Not stated in the manual.)
2. Move the shifter all the way forward, then bring is slowly back to neutral. Mark the spot on the inner cable where the end of the outer cable seal is located and designate that as the "A" position.
3. Move the shifter all the way to reverse, then slowly bring it back to neutral. Mark the spot on the inner cable where the end of the the outer cable seal is located and designate that as the "B" position.
4. Now adjust the linkage so that the end of the outer cable seal is mid-way between "A" and "B", mark, mark that, and designate it as the "C" position.
5. Push on the end of the cable to see if there is play. If so, readjust the linkage so that it has the same amount of play in both directions.
6. Turn the end of the linkage 90 degrees and slip over the shift link pin.
7. Move the remote shifter back and forth to see if it now easily goes into gear. You may need a second person to turn the prop while you are doing this test. Do not force it into gear. With prop being turned, it should go into gear rather easily.

If it is still difficult to shift, or won't shift (with someone turning the prop), make incremental adjustments to the linkage to try to get it there. If in step 1, after you detach the cable, if you cannot get the shift arm in a position where the prop will spin freely in either direction, then I suspect you have a problem with the shift shaft allignment or the shift gear in the lower end, which you will need to remove.

Chawk, Thanks again for your help.

I don't think its a problem with the shift cable being out of adjustment. When I detached the shift cable from the shift arm, the shift arm was very difficult to move. I could only move it with a long wrench and a hammer.

I tried moving the prop before moving the throttle, but not while I was trying to move the throttle.

I think you might be on to something in regards to it being a problem with the shift shaft allignment or the shift gear in the lower end. I remember having a difficult time getting the lower unit back on after replacing the water pump at the start of last season (Spring 2011). Maybe I didn't install it correctly.

If I need to remove the lower unit, that will most likely end my season. Anything else I could try before calling the boat hauler?

I can't think of anything else. Maybe someone else monitoring this thread will have another idea. Besides, since you used a hammer and wrench on the shift arm, you may need to disasemble the gear assembly in the lower unit. That's well beyond my expertise.

Thanks again Chawk, I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and helping out. I'll wait and see if Chris or Hondadude jump in. Otherwise, it looks like I need to haul it and remove the lower unit. Or more likely, call a pro.

You may have gotten your shift shaft A and B out of sync. See part numbers 8 and 14 http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Honda/Outboard Engine/2002/BF225A2 LA /SHIFT SHAFT/parts.html

If so, if probably happened when you put your lower unit on and the shift shaft on the lower unit did not mesh with the lower shift shaft. When that happens, e clip #51 usually gets knocked off and the whole shift shaft A gets pushed up then A and B no longer mesh or could jump by a tooth or two. They are both located under the power head. Sometimes the #30 washer goes down the shift shaft and ends up at the top of your gearcase shift shaft.

That may not be your problem, but in any case, most likely, you will have to pull your lower unit back off to check your shifting on the lower unit and check to be sure nothing is bound up in the upper linkage. You could just have something going on with the linkage that you can actually put your hands on.

You just have to check each piece of the puzzle to see where it is stuck.

Mike

Thanks for the help Mike. It looks like I'll be calling my boat hauler.

Once I get it out of the water I'll take off the lower unit and take a look a the linkage.

The last time I tried to put the lower unit back on, it fought me the whole way. Is there a trick to getting them back on? The shift shaft would not stay in position and would lean to one side. I had to use a coat hanger to position it properly so it would slide back in.

Thanks again, your help is greatly appreciated.

Mike,
I pulled the lower unit and checked the shifting on the lower unit. When I rotated the shift rod, it seemed to easily go from between the 3 positions (assuming Forward, Neutral and Reverse). I'm starting to think that your suspicion is correct; I knocked the shift shaft A and B out of alignment when I installed the lower unit.

I can only see the tips of the shift shafts that show above and below an enclosed section of the engine, so it doesn’t look like I will have any easy access to the shafts. This doesn’t sound like its going to be an easy fix. You mentioned that the shafts are located under the powerhead. Do I really need to remove the powerhead to fix it? If so, it sounds like it’s time to call a pro.

You should not have to remove the powerhead if you have great patience.

Here is a link from a link for a 150 HP with the same problem. http://www.marineengine.com/boat-fo...ter-impeller-change-out&highlight=bf150+shift

The fix is the same for the 225. The later posts get into the nitty gritty and there is also feedback from the originator as to exactly what he did.

There are a couple of threads that explain the same process. Just can not find them right now. In one of them, the customer took it to his dealer and the dealer fixed it very quickly. Hopefully, your dealer has some experience under his belt to fix it. There is a section in the 225 manual explaining exactly how to fix it...without pulling the powerhead.

Mike

Brian,
Just read this thread what is happening to you happened to me replacing water pumps, had issue with midhshaft bearings reminder to replace them when pulling lower unit... Also had to reallign shift shft gears manual will help with that easy ones you figure out but tough for me to understand took mine to mechanic and watched him reallign... didnt have to pull powerhead its near shift arms etc...

Jamie,
I'm wondering if I have the same problem. With my engine, the throttle handle will not move. Was your throttle handle stuck or could move it, but the engine would not shift into gear (forward/reverse). If its not the same, it looks to be very similar.

Mike,
I have a Seloc manual. I haven't been able to find any info on shift shafts A and B. Its a big manual, I'll look again.

I can see what I think is the "e-ring" (#51) on the bottom of shift-shaft-A , but I'm not sure if the ring stopper (#52) is there? The e-ring looks bent, but its intact. Can you tell anything from the image?


Brian

It does look like the e ring has been compromised and may not be positioned right. It is hard to tell for sure.

If you have the lower unit off, you can check on the alignment of the shift shaft by looking at the splines at the bottom of the long shift shaft coming down the swivel case. Of the teeth inside the shaft, there should be a flat spot that should be directly forward if everything else throughout the motor and the shift box are in neutral. If it is not, then shift shaft A and B are out of alignment.

Since the e ring is still somewhat in place, first try to get it straighten out and better positioned in the groove.

Check in your manual for Shift shaft alignment procedure. I doubt it is there, since it is an aftermarket manual. Since the e ring is still on, the alignment is done by going at it from the upper part of the motor where the neutral safety switch is located. It involves removing the neutral safety switch (for room to operate), removing the seal holder (#17) and slightly lifting shift shaft B #14 so that the lower (long shift shaft rod) can be oriented with the flat spot to the front of the engine. Then rotating so that the upper shaft is in the position to push in the neutral safety switch.

Be sure that the shifter is in neutral at the helm.

When everything seems aligned, then lower the shift shaft B back down to engage shift shaft A. Then put everything back into place. Put some tape around the tip of shift shaft B to keep from tearing the seal when you put it over the shift shaft.

Then you should be good to go.



Mike

Brian,
My eclip got popped off and caused my shafts to be out of aligned .. it did effect motors nbeing in nuertal and not running etc...

Mike,
I've read your instructions about 5 times (while looking at the schematic) and I think I understand what needs to be done. I'll give it a shot next weekend, when I can get to the boat.

Thanks again. As always, your help is greatly appreciated.

Mike,
Finally got back to working on this...

Per your instuctions, I checked on the alignment of the shift shaft by looking at the splines at the bottom of the long shift shaft coming down the swivel case. The flat spot faces directly forward (the engine is in neutral), so it looks like its not out of allignment.

I called my mechanic and he said that has seen this on some of the older Hondas and he thinks it due to "salt water penetration". He also said that he will most likely need to remove the power head to get at the shift shafts (about 10 hours labor to remove and replace). Does this make sense? Anything else I should try before I have it hauled to his shop?

Brian

Shift shaft A or B might be frozen by salt, but I do not see any salt on the outside of the case in your picture. If there is salt on the inside of the casing, that is not good in any case. There could be more things having issues than just your shift shaft. There should not be any water inside that flywheel cavity.

Before he takes it all apart, ask him to try the shift shaft alignment procedure in the Service Manual in Section 16 Subsection 7.

Mike

Mike,
Thanks for sending me the shift shaft alignment procedure. The boat is at the mechanics shop. I asked him about the shift shaft alignment procedure and he told me he tried it, but was unable to move the shift shaft at all. His worst-case estimate is now at 16 hours, plus $500+ in parts. He told me he has to remove the mid-section, oil pan and powerhead to get at it. He also recommended a de-carb, "Thermostat cover kit" repair and a "Main relay kit" repair, which I think I'm going to do.

Its tough putting this kind of money into a 10+ year old engine (w/ 500 hours), but I don't think I have much of a choice.

Thanks again for all you advise.

Brian__c

It beats $20k for a new motor.

It is a shame that the entire motor has to come apart for that. Too bad you can't just remove side panels and a few bolts and pull power head. An old timer once explained to me why such things are so difficult. He said that the Design Engineer found a mechanic in bed with his wife.......

Hope things work out.

Mike
E

Mike,
"Design Engineer found a mechanic in bed with his wife". That would explain a lot..... ;-)

Just got a call from the mechanic that the repairs are done. He told me that once the engine was apart, he found that the seals around the shift shaft were gone and that salt water must have gotten in there and corroded the shafts. He said that the 2 shift shafts were totally frozen and that he needed a blow torch, hammer and chisel to get them apart.

Thanks again for you help.

Brian

OUCH!!!! Had that motor been out of service for a long period of time? That would explain the problem with the seals.

No, it was not out of service for long. I've had it for 4 years and have been averaging about 75 hours per season. The previous owner had 210 hours on it over 5 seasons.

It is good to hear you are up and running again.

Mike