Bf150 won't go in to gear after impeller change-out

good day, Gents---Changed out the impeller on a 2007 BF150. Motor had 400+ hours of salt water use so it was a bit hard to get the L.U. off and just as hard to get it back on. When getting it back on, it didn't want to seat properly so I applied a bit of force --- I heard a load popping noise before it finally seated . Now it won't shift into gear. The remote freely goes into F, N and R but the LU gears stay in "N".

If I attach vise grips to the shift rod with the LU off, I can see that the shift rod is turning when I shift from the remote (the remote freely operates into F, N and R).

But when I replace the LU, the remote no longer activates the shift shaft, even though the remote freely operates into F,N, and R.

I can confirm that the "E" clip that clips just below the washer on the shift rod is missing--I ordered another. Here's the question--based on the fact that the remote freely shifts into F, N and R when the LU is off, can I presume that once I replace "E" ring part No. 52 onto the lower end of the shift shaft (groove beneath the washer), this will solve the shifting problem? I have read former posts describing that same "popping" sound--is it the part No. 52 "E" clip popping off the shift rod or does that mean the shift rod was jammed upwards and disengaged the teeth at the top of the shift rod?

I took great care to make sure the flat un-toothed portion of the shift rod was facing forward when replacing the LU. The shift shaft above it was never moved or turned when replacing the LU so I thought the splined portion would seat again with no problem---I do not understand why it wouldn't seat properly and blew-off the "E" clip in the process

Thanks for your comments and sorry about the long-winded description of my problem!

Remove lower unit and try to shift it.--------------------Check to see if shift shaft operates properly on the motor itself.------------------You need to determine if problem is in the lower unit or mechanism on the motor.

hey racerone, I can confirm that both shift shaft (on LU) operates fine and shift rod (dropping down from the motor) also operates (as demonstrated with vise grips described above). I'm thinking that once the LU is bolted on, without the E clip in place on the shift rod the connection from the remote for F,N and R to the shift shaft (on the LU) is "lost"

I guess what I'm not getting from your post is:

Have you separated item 10 (rod A, shift) in the page below from item (9 Rod, shift) on the next page and verified that when item 9 is rotated left and right, that the gear case changes gears? If so, then your problem is up above. I've not worked on one of these but it seems to me that the E ring you're concerned about is only to hold the two splined portions of the A shift rod together and limit vertical separation.

Since shifting is accomplished with rotational movement until it is transferred to horizontal movement at the bottom of the item #9 shift rod I wouldn't think the E ring would be your problem. I could be wrong, but I think something else is busted and replacing the E ring won't solve your issue.

(http://www.boats.net/parts/search/H...0 XA VIN# BANJ-1300001/SHIFT SHAFT/parts.html

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/H...300001/WATER PUMP + VERTICAL SHAFT/parts.html

If you can verify that rotating item 9 in the above link shifts the transmission, then your search will be up above. If rotating the item 9 shaft and the prop doesn't cause the gears to change, then I suspect you will need to disassemble the gear case and find whats broken down there.

Thanks for the comments, jgmo. To answer your questions----Shift rod No. 9 turns fine and shifts the gears no problem. With LU removed, Shift shaft No. 10 also turns fine when remote is shifted (I confirmed this by attaching vice grips and manipulating the remote into F, N and R and saw the vice-grips rotationally move according to the shifted position of the remote)

However, when LU is bolted back on, gears remain in "N" when remote is shifted into either F or R. I lose the rotational movement of Nos. 9 + 10

I am thinking (hoping) that "E" ring No. 52 does in fact hold shift Rod No. 10 and shift shaft No. 9 together as you noted, but also limits the amount of vertical "travel" of Part No. 12 at the top of the shift rod so the teeth remain engaged in part No. 18. Without "E" ring No. 52 in place, I am thinking that bolting the LU back on promotes enough vertical travel in Nos 9 + 10 to disengage No. 12 from No. 18.

As I have heard descriptions of the "popping " noise in previous posts, I was hoping someone could chime in who experienced the same problems when bolting the LU back on.

thanks again for your comments, jgmo

Well I have a 90 HP honda that I bought ( engine all apart in boxes ) -----looking at the parts I would say that the quadrant gears may be disengages under the powerhead.-----------------------Try pushing up on the shift rod and see if those quadrant gears are still engaged!!------------------Never do forced assembly work on an outboard seems to be the lesson here.

hey racerone, you're right--I was working solo and should have waited for another set of hands when replacing the LU--- I also had to force it to dis-assemble due to corrosion.

Quadrant gears as you refer to them---When I attached vice grips to the shift rod, the quadrant gears were engaged. That's why the grips twisted back and forth when I operated the remote. But If I push upwards on the shift rod, there is a point where the rod spins freely, meaning the quadrant gears are not engaged --- it appears the "E" ring is a critical part to maintain the connection between gears, shaft rod and shift rod. Not sure why the E ring popped off in the first place---I know I had the splines of the shift shaft properly lined up with the splines in the shift rod, with the flat "non-splined" portion facing forward. I used a proper Honda BF150 manual from start to finish and confirmed the splines were mating with a flashlight before "forcing" the re-assembly.

This was my first impeller change-out on a big Honda. Had a Yamaha F150 before the Honda ---Yamaha impeller change-out was a piece of cake-- hopefully, I'll learn my way around this BF150 without doing any more damage....

I would say the splines in the shift shaft have severe corrosion and are in need of cleaning / replacement.---It is likely a good idea to remove the lower unit each season to lube the splines and apply sealer to bolts.

hey Gents

With the intent of providing constructive feed-back to the forum (and knowing that what happened to me will probably happen to other guys doing their own impeller change-outs sooner or later) i submit the following information on the final outcome:

1)) PROBLEM: HONDA BF150 WOULD NOT SHIFT INTO GEAR WHEN L/U BOLTED BACK ON AFTER IMPELLER CHANGE
2)) LOUD "POPPING" NOISE WHEN BOLTING LU ON THE FIRST TIME: DETERMINED CAUSE: splines of shift rod and shift shaft did not properly align. When tightening L/U bolts, the "E" clip necessary to hold the shift rod in proper position popped off---result was the quadrant gears operated by the remote shifter were no longer meshing and the engine was stuck in neutral
3) RESOLUTION: ordered a new "E" clip. Made sure flat spot in shift shaft splines (L/U) and shift rod (hanging down from engine mid-section) both were facing in a "forward" direction, then I placed the new "E" ring in a groove in the shift rod (just beneath the shift rod washer--I used two pairs of long-nosed needle nose pliers to get the "E" ring properly positioned--Lord love em'!!) .
4) Once again----the "E" ring is critical as it locks the shift rod in down (engaged) position so the teeth of the "quadrant gears" (manipulated by the remote shift box) properly mesh
5) BF150 now starts, pumps water like a cow on a flat rock, and gears shift properly. Monetary damage: $ 6.00 for new "E" clip

All right! Good news. I wouldn't have guessed it all hinged around that clip but this is proof that you don't want to lose that sucker.
Thanks for the blow by blow. It might save me a big headache someday soon.

Hey jgmo, here's another bit of information on the problem I encountered replacing the "E" clip: I saw that after getting the "E" clip back in place under the washer, the flat spot in the splines of the shift rod (the rod hanging down from the engine) were just the tiniest bit off (not facing dead ahead) So rather then take the "E" clip back off (it was a pain in the neck positioning it correctly the first time) I decided to turn the shift shaft (in the L.U) just a tiny bit so the flat spot in the splines of the shift shaft would match the splines in the shift rod. Big mistake! When I got the L.U. buttoned back up the remote would only shift into "R" and "N" but not "F". (it's now abundantly clear to me how finely tuned the shift shaft in the L.U. is--just the smallest degree of twist to port or starboard will engage or disengage gears)

So I had no choice at that point but pull the L.U. back off, pull the "E" clip off , push the shift rod up, turn it one click to the starboard so the flat spot in the splines were pointed dead ahead, then pull it back down. Did the same with the splined portion of the shift shaft in the L.U., got everything buttoned back up and Holy Mackerel, everything worked the way it should!

I describe this little scenario because the following struck me: if someone is having shift problems, I understand that you can go in from the top of the motor and readjust cables, fiddle with the detente, and maybe even readjust the teeth of the quadrant gears etc.

But I also realized that it might be just as easy to pull the L.U., remove the "E" clip, and readjust the shift shaft from the bottom up so as to address the same problem. As soon as the "E" clip is pulled off the shift rod, the shift rod has approx. 3/4" of upward play in it. When pushed up, it spins freely. When pulled down (and then secured with the "E" clip) it then is engaged (meshes) and only spins when the remote box is manipulated.

Do I have that right? I was worried that the loud popping noise I heard meant that the "E" clip was only part of the problem; that the shift rod being pushed upwards had screwed up the meshed gears at the top of the shift rod and i would be faced with heart surgery instead of a quick fix. Apparently that was not the case.

I thought I'd throw this in for constructive commentary

thanks

Let me start first by saying that I sometimes step in "it" when I start commenting here on models I've never actually worked on. Yours is a prime example. I would not have thought that the clip would be so central to the two shafts meshing properly but you have proven that is, indeed, the case.

With that said, and remembering the fact that I have never personally gazed down on this unit, I still get a little "queasy" when you describe turning it "one click to starboard so that the flat spot in the splines were pointed dead ahead".

It has been my experience when working with "connections" like this that the "flat spot" you refer to on both shafts is called a "key". These things are usually "keyed" in this manner so that a mechanic shouldn't be able to put the two shafts together "one click off". It is also my experience that, when a system is "keyed" in such a manner that, no, there should be no play down in that not so easily accessed area but that all fine adjustment is designed to be done up top, with the cables and the detente just as you describe.

Hopefully, I am wrong, AGAIN, and you are finished with your project. But, without seeing it, I just have this feeling that you may have damaged the "key" when you forced the two together. Not trying to be Chicken Little here but I'd hate to have you find out that it slips out of gear, because of this, at the worst possible time.

hello again jgmo--thanks and noted your comments. For clarification, when the flat spot was off one click on the shift rod I turned the shift shaft in the L.U. just enough to match the spline orientation. The L.U. bolted back on with only gentle tweaking.

When that spline orientation "froze" the remote box from going into "F" gear, I removed the L.U., took the "E" clip back off, got both splines pointed in the correction direction and very gently bolted everything back up. The remote then shifted freely into all gears. I ran the engine with muffs and went through all the gears with the engine running and the new impeller pumping---shifting was smooth as silk with no grinding.

But I'm a serious mechanical greenhorn and with your words in mind, I'm bringing it in to a local Honda mechanic to have him thoroughly check out the shift mechanisms and the remote connection.

Reason being-----Before I changed out the impeller (and ever since I've owned this boat and the BF150) it's had a shift problem: "F" and "N", no problem. "R" , a definite problem. Goes into gear fine but when you want to correct and shift the remote back into "N" it stays in "R". The only way to get it back into "N" is shove it into "F", then back to "N". Makes for sweaty palms at a crowded dock. I've put off dealing with it because the Honda guys are always "three weeks out" and that would have really taken a chunk out of my summer salmon fishing. Now will be a good time and I'll report back on the whole "E" clip thing because I'll explain to him what I did, the effect it had on the shifting, and see what he says. Several months ago when I described the shifting problem with "R" he attributed it to worn or slack cables, saying they should be replaced. In his defense, however, he said this without looking at the engine.... But I'm on it and I'll report back

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions and in the meantime, Happy Holidays to you, sir!

marketic,

Thanks for that. I'll be standing by and interested to hear the outcome.
Regards to you and yours and have a wonderful Christmas season.

Happy New Year, Gents--

Quick up date on the impeller change and shifting problem on the BF150: I mentioned I'd received the "E" clip from Boats.net (to replace the "E" ring that had popped off the shift rod when bolting the L.U. back into place after replacing the impeller a few weeks ago).

I slipped the "E" ring into place using two sets of mega long-nosed pliers. After getting it back into place in the groove, I mentioned that the flat spots in the shift rod spline and the flat spot in the shift shaft splines did not exactly match up ( point straight forward). So I removed the "E" ring, made the adjustment to the shift shaft so everything was properly aligned, then reinstalled the "E" ring and buttoned everything back up.

Finally took the boat out fishing ---the BF150 now shift fine, pumps water fine, and according to the Laws of Unintended Consequences, no longer sticks in reverse. It shifts smoothly into gears and stays in neutral when going from "R" to "N" (it didn't do that before and I thought it was due to faulty cable adjustment--not!)

I'm thinking the following: the last guy who changed out the impeller (this was a pre-owned BF150) somehow buttoned the L.U. back on without properly aligning the shift shaft and the shift rod. That might explain why when shifting into "R" then back to "N" the gears always stuck momentarily in "R" unless I shoved it into "F" then back to "N". I'm thinking the shift rod was half a click off and it had nothing to do with slack cables (???).

Now that the shift shaft splines and shift rod splines are properly aligned, she shifts smooth as silk. Great way to go into the New Year---even caught three salmon when doing my sea trials!