2001 BF 130 hp Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Guys, a newbee on your forum so I hope you can help.

I have a 2001 Honda BF130 BZBE1006570 which has performed great from the start and which I got second hand. It has the upgrade where the HP fuel pump is contained within the float and vapor housing and not bolted below.
It recently stopped and upon inspection had a good spark, loads of fuel to the unit but no fuel at the high pressure side.
I opened the high pressure fuel relief bolt and no fuel came out, even when the unit was cranked.
In addition I could hear the pump running which would not stop unless I cut all the power to the boat...but no fuel came out .!!.
Question: Does anyone know what the problem might be, could it be the fuel pump itself or the master relay. ...or both ?.
Any ideas ?
PS Help !!!!!!!

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hope you are somewhat mechanically inclined...

I am not sure why the pump is continually running. It is controlled by the ecu through the main power relay bank. Since the fuel pump is running, it is probably not the cause for no fuel, but it can burn up if it does not have fuel to it and it runs too long. The fuel acts to cool it. It is a pretty hardy pump though.

The good news is....you have limited it to no fuel in the high pressure side.

1 - Are you getting any fuel out of the drain nipple of the vapor separator? It is possible to get it there and not at the high pressure relief bolt.

2- If not, make sure you are getting fuel through your low pressure fuel pump. It is located on the back of your engine at the bottom of the valve cover. Pull one of the hoses. I can not remember which one goes to the vapor separator, but you can probably see it when you are next to the motor. Pull that hose going to your vapor separator off your low pressure pump and see if fuel will come out when you squeeze the fuel bulb in the boat.

3 - If you get fuel through the hose, you will probably have to disassemble your vapor separator. Most likely, you have a stuck float and no fuel is getting into the vapor separator. Thus, no fuel to the high pressure fuel pump.

5 - I think the 130 has a screen under the high pressure fuel pump. Be sure to clean that out.

6 - There is also a high pressure fuel filter under the cover that the pressure release bolt is on. It has three screws that hold it on. Once the high pressure pump gets the fuel, it pumps the fuel into the next chamber with the fuel filter before it goes to the fuel rail. So, if you are getting fuel out of the drain of the vapor separator, you have either a clogged passage to the high pressure filter or a clogged high pressure filter or both.

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Percy,

Now that I have slept on this...the continuous fuel pump running could be an issue with the main power relay, if you had to kill all power to the boat to stop it.

When you turn the boat power back on, does the fuel pump continue to run?

If not, will it start running again (and not stop) when you turn the key on then back off?

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Hondadude, I am reasonably good with the spanners...so here goes,

1. I checked the lift pump and it appears to be working and the float unit itself had a lot of fuel in it when removed. The pump has a pulsing style of discharge...but I did not measure the flow rate.

2. The vapor bleed was also checked at sea and did flow fuel quite happily.

3. I dismantled the unit and the float valve appeared to work fine although I was unable to check the float height. ..although as described earlier there appeared to be loads of fuel in the unit.

4. I could find no blockages at all in the unit and was able to blow air through all the passagways leading to the HP Pump.

5. The filter was a little discoloured but appeared to be ok....and I would have expected a drop in performance prior to it stopping altogether suggesting that it was getting clogged....also it was working fine only 20 mins before I tried to restart it and it failed to do so.

6. The pump was running , with the ignition off, which has made me wonder since if the main relay had caught a cold....I am hoping to test it this weekend with an electrical engineer friend of mine. It would not restart under any circs and stopped on command when required to do so earlier in the trip.

I just can't work out how the pump could be running and nothing coming out.......if the pressure regulator had failed I assume that it would not cause a total failure of the unit to pump ?.

Sorry about the length of the message...any ideas.

Percy

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Percy,

The more information, the better...

The fuel pump should put out a good solid stream. If the high pressure filter is in question, you could run the engine without for testing purposes. But...as you are reasoning, unless it was totally gooed up, the motor should at least start.

The real issue may be a power issue. Maybe the pump is not getting full voltage.

Have your friend check the voltage going to the fuel pump. Make sure the pump is connected at the time. The pump plugs in via a connector just a few inches above the vapor separator. It should be a solid 12 volts across the pump. If it is significantly less, unplug the fuel pump power. Then check the voltage again. If it goes up or stays the same, check for a voltage drop somewhere in the circuit.

The circuit is essentially. Battery to fuse block, to 30 amp FI fuse to main relay module, to fuel pump. That is somewhat simplified, but should give you a few basic places to test for voltage drop. I do hope you have one...


The main power relays on the 130's have had some issues. It is possible that corrosion or whatever has accumulated inside what is supposed to be a sealed unit and is causing the main power relay to lock up on itself. That could be why you have to disable all power to the engine to get it to quit.

The relay module runs about $50. If it has never been changed, it might be good to do so anyway.

The signal to run the fuel pump comes from the ecm. When you turn the key to on, the ecm activates the fuel pump relay in the main relay module and runs the pump for two seconds. Once the engine starts running, the ecu senses that the engine is running and activates the relay again to start the pump up again.

There is a wiring diagram in the back of your owner's manual. That should help your friend trace the voltages. If you can not find yours, you can download one from Honda for free. http://marine.honda.com/Owners/Manuals/models/BF130

To the left of the starter are three fuses. Left to right they are..a 10 amp Remote Control Fuse, a 30 amp FI Fuse, and a 30 amp Starter fuse.

The 10 amp fuse supplies the power to activate the main relay. This is done when you turn the key to on.

The 30 amp FI fuse supplies power to the ECM (and a bunch of other circuits) through one relay... and power to the fuel pump (through the second relay).

If you need to kill the power, pull the 30 amp FI fuse and that should kill most everything. If that does not work, the power is coming from some place else.

If you do not want to kill everything but do not want the pump to run, just disconnect the fuel pump.

Most of the cables and connectors are easy to get to on the 130. That makes it pretty easy to trouble shoot.

It is nice that you have an Electrical Engineer friend. Troubleshooting this should be easy for him/her. The hardest thing will be to find the connectors or places to test.

I hope this helps.

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike, thanks for your efforts with this problem. I was also considering a power drop as an option...... I will be checking it out this weekend and will get back to you with any news.
Logic would suggest that it is either a duff pump , no or limited power or fuel starvation....................hopefully we will see.

Chat soon.

Gavin

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Percy,

Just thought of this while cleaning dinner dishes...yes I have a problem...I was actually thinking how to get out of cutting the grass tonight...

An easy way to check the fuel pump is to disconnect it from the motor and run 12 volts directly to it through its connector. That way you can easily check if there is any pressure built up.

Be sure the polarity is correct. It can run backwards if wrong. The black wire is ground. I think the other is a black/yellow wire...which is +12v

If the pump is ok, do not try to start the motor until you find the voltage drop. It may be harmful to the ECM.

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike
We did a thorough diagnostics (well, we would have liked to initiate the ECU diagnostics mode, but didn’t have the correct lights) on the engine yesterday, but didn’t manage to definitively isolate the problem
ref picture: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D637085_829137_602741

Initial observation showed there was no 2 second fuel pump precharge, and definitely no pump operation when trying to start.
So, isolated elimination of components started with the relay unit. Insitu voltage readings showed all was ok, BUT the Lg/R terminal was ALWAYS floating around 11V ish. For correct operation, this terminal MUST be grounded.

Removal of the relay unit, and thorough testing in isolation proved:
Relay 1
BL/Y = +12V, BL = 0V Relay good, good connectivity on W/Y and Y/BL
Relay 2
W = +12V, Lg/R = 0V Relay good, good connectivity on W/BL and Bu/Y

Diode checks ok, but not sure I tested the diode and Resistor path thoroughly.

Hooked the relay up in the system as normal, but left Lg/R open. This connection we Permanently grounded (Not connected to the ECU). The engine started and remained running perfectly.

So, its looking like the ECU is disallowing this operation for some reason, or the sinking circuitry of this line is fried.
What are the long term downsides to permanently grounding this connection, as the replacement costs of a new ECU are not in scope!!
edit: Would you know of any reasons why the ECU would disallow this operation? I am wondering if this is one of those odd 'secondary issue' things, like the ecu doesnt like a specific sensor reading for example (we tested the Lanyard BTW!!)

Cheers!!

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike, we tested the engine this weekend, my friend the electrical engineer has posted the previous post for you as I have NO IDEA what he is talking about. (Spanners , yes..Electrics, No)
Basically I did a direct feed to the pump and it worked fine, which is a shame because I had already gone to the trouble of buying and fitting a new pump.
The original feed was only 7v.
As a result we did test the main relay which appeared to be ok and got it running by grounding a wire from the relay as per my mates description above.

Any thoughts ?, as mentioned can we run the engine without any further consequences or will I require a new ECU if indeed it is faulty.

Gavin

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Wow! What a thorough job of troubleshooting! Congratulations to you and your friend.

First...There is a question on the diagram..."not sure what feeds this?"....pointing to the Bl/y lead. Answer...it comes from the key switch when you turn it to on.

Second...There is also a question as to the Y/Bl being a alternator output. It is actually, an input to the alterator (I think to energize the fields). It is also power to the ECU and power to the injectors. If the motor runs, this lead is probably good to the ECU, however, there are two connections to the ECU. I am unsure what happens if only one connection is good.

You evidently do not have the Pgm (check engine light) or battery charge light.

You will need that to troubleshoot for codes. Your friend probably could rig up a 12 lamp (low wattage), and connect it to the connector on the engine.

My eyes are going blurry trying to read a downloaded diagram on an owner's manual.

I think I have a nice colored diagram at work. I will check it for the correct leads.

I would not run the engine permanently like you are. I can not be sure, but it may not go into safe mode, then shut down, if you go into an overheat. Not sure of any other conditions it also might mask.

Questions..

1. When you turn the switch to on, does your warning buzzer sound with two beeps? If not it should.

2. Have you checked the Lg/R lead for continuity all the way to the ECU. It connects to the ECU at two points. It is possible that you may just have an open in the harness.

3. Do you have a Repair Manual? It looks like you might from the circuit that you came up with for the main relay.

4. When the engine ran, was the oil light on in your key switch panel?

It is possible that there are other things going on that ECU senses and will not allow the fuel pump to operate. The ECU is rather basic, so I am leaning more towards a circuit problem. Although, a bad ECU is possible, they are pretty hardy.

I will get back to you on the leads and maybe some other thoughts when I check out my colored diagram.

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike, we like to do things thorough here...there's fishing and boating to be enjoyed !!

1. When we switch on we do get the two buzzer sound but no longer get the 2 second pump pre-charge.

3. I do have repair manual in a CD format that we have been referring to.

4. I do not recall seeing the oil light on the switch panel when the engine was running but would need to check that to be sure. ( I may not have looked)

I cannot answer question 2 but my friend may be able to when he reads this.
We are planning to make a Test Lamp to see if the engine is supplying a fault code, can these codes be found in the manual (we could not see them at first glance the other day).

I am interested in your suggestion that the ECU may have identified another problem, presumably it would prevent the pump from running to stop the engine ?. Would I not have heard a warning buzzer aswell. ?.

Gavin

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike, Thanks for the reply..
2) I did a continuity test from the Lg/R terminal on the Relay plug to the lead entering the ECU box, this was ok. Unfortunately, Internally, I think it splits to feed both FLR1 and FLR2 terminals. I can’t access these directly, had to splice into the lead to test.

I think we need to revisit the engine, and do a round two diagnostic. This time, we will have the fault codes and lights at the ready!!
Thanks again

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

The codes should be in the Troubleshooting section. I am not familiar with the downloaded manuals, so I am not sure if yours would have it.

I was slammed at work today and did not get a chance to even grab the wiring diagram.

When you measure the continuity, disconnect the connector at the ECU. That way you can get the continuity all the way to the ECU. Also...you can see if there is any corrosion on the contacts. Just reseating the ECU a couple of times could solve the problem. Be sure not to bend the pins.

The other thing to check would be to be sure that all the grounds to the ECU are good and continuity is good for them. I think there are at least three. I think they have different functions. I know they do on several inboard/outboards. What I am thinking is...maybe the ECU is trying to send a ground but it does not have one to send.
I know this is a stretch but may be worth the time.

As I remember, most of the grounds are near the starter and on the lower front port side of the block.

Just for chuckles...you may want to check all connectors for corrosion and reseat them too. There are not that many.


I have to keep thinking...you said that it ran ok when you put it away. What could have happened while stored? Corrosion? Critters eating through the wiring? Broken wire, when winterizing? In a damp area??...again corrosion?

My gut is telling me that it is not a sensor. If it idles and runs ok with your special ground, the IAC, TPS, MAP, IAT and ECT sensors are probably ok. That only leaves the Oil Pressure and Overheat sensors.

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike, the engine has never been laid up as it has been in constant use. (perhaps you are confusing me with another member).

It is a puzzle, the engine was running fine on the night it stopped working. We had done a good run out to the site and then switched off for some fishing. It was when we tried to restart some time later that we had the problem. There was no alarm , and no other signs of problems...just no fuel as previously described.

As mentioned when we did get it going this weekend it ran fine.

Can the power to the pump be reduced to 7v by the ECU to prevent starting after a fault is identified ? or is this a red herring ?

We will be checking your suggestions this weekend and hopefully will attach a suitable light to the unit to see if there is a fault code and go from there.

Thanks again.

Gavin

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

I do not know the answer to your question. I do not think the ECU is that smart. All the info I see indicates that it provides either a ground or an open, depending on the situation.

Make sure the bulbs are low current. I assume you know where to connect the leads...

If not, let me know.

I also assume you know how to put it in service mode. Depending on the vintage of the 130, it should have a red connector with two pins. A simple paperclip shorting the two should get you in service mode.

If the PGM light comes on steady...you have no codes...

If the light does not even come on, it could be an indication of a bad ground or power to the ecm.

I know I seem hung up on grounds and power leads. If I am right, they may be hard to find. I am trying not to mention a possible issue with the ECM itself, although it is a possibility.

If it is a sensor, most of them are easy to get to and change.

If you try to start your engine with any sensor unplugged, you will throw a code.

If you do throw a code, reset the ECM per the instructions on p 5-6. You have to have the shorting plug (paperclip) installed. Basically, you turn the key switch on...then within 20 seconds....push the emergency stop switch in 5 times in a row for about a second at a time. Pause about 1/2 to 1 second in between pushes. The alarm will sound twice and the MIL light will come on steady.

Good luck this weekend.

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike, well I think we have come to a decision....

1. We checked all the Grounds/Earths that we could find and cleaned them up. Some were dirty and had some resistance ? but all were fine after a bit of TLC. The power to the pump had not changed.

2. We checked for an error code and it had one,which was Error 3, which we identified as a problem with the MAS sensor. However I reset the ECU and after running it for a while the error never reappeared. This would suggest that it had been repaired in the past and never reset or had a problem once that has resolved itself.

The engine was started again by applying power directly to the pump and it ran fine.

According to my mate (the electrical engineer) we do not have a ground from the ECU when we should have and as a result, after all our deliberations we think that the ECU is duff.

Now...a question.

If the ECU, in respect of the fuel pump, only turns it on and off, can we create our own ground and use the engine as normal ?.
or would it have some impact on the rest of the ECU's processes and cause us a problem. ?

Thoughts !?

Gavin

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

My answer would have to be...I do not know.

I do not know all the exact design elements of the ECM and I would not recommend it.

There is no absolute way to know that the ECM is doing everything that it should to run you engine. If it is having a problem with one other function, it could destroy your engine. I am also concerned about the safety issue...if the ECM sees a problem serious enough, it will shut the engine down. If that portion of the ECM is also bad, who knows what will happen.

I may be worth the effort to find a used one on line or at a salvage yard. The ECM for the BF115 and BF130 are the same...so you can use either one.

Where are you located? If in the US, there are at least a couple in the midwest that I could recommend.

My gut says give it a try, but I hope you understand why I can not.

I will keep my eyes open for a used one.

Let me know what you do.

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Thanks for your help Mike, the trouble is we are in the UK and the cost of a new ECU would be about double expected in the USA......£1000
I would like to swap it out to be sure that it is the ECU but I do not know anyone who would be happy to let a stranger try this.

I will have to see what can be done.

Will keep you updated.

Thanks again.

Gavin

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Just a quick further note.....after some research the new ECU would cost about £420....(not £1000) still a lot of dosh but not as much as feared. Will have to be sure of my prognosis but may have to get one to finally resolve the problem one way or another.

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

You may want to call a couple of large Honda dealers and see if they might have a test 115HP or 130HP ECM. Discuss all the tests that you did. They will probably be very surprised that you have done such extensive testing. It may cost you an analysis fee, since they would probably want to be the ones to do the test...but it may be worth the cost to find out for sure. They may even make you a deal, if you buy it from them.

I understand where you are coming from...wanting to be sure that the ECM is the problem. Here in the states, as a dealer, we can call our District Service Manager, and many times he has or has access to test ECM's for that very purpose. I also like to be sure, before I ask a customer to pay a lot of money for an ECM.

Good luck!

Mike

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

Hi Mike, just to let you know that a new ECU has fixed the problem. I ordered one from a company based on the Hamble in the UK and had a bit of a trial as I was not told that it was going to be second hand when I ordered it. They gave me a reasonable discount at the time but when it arrived it was used.....they have since claimed that because it was a shop unit used for the occasional test that it was still "Brand New"............mmmm.

Still it was worth a £100 less I just wished that they had been a bit more honest at the time.

Thanks for all your help...no doubt I will be seeking your help again in the future.

Gavin

Re: BF130 Is Dead and the summer is here

I am glad things worked out. Thanks for the feedback. Everyone of these is a journey in learning new things.

Mike