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Alarm but no codes? 2003 200 hp

J

jj_lynn

Member
Well my 200hp 2003 honda has been alarming (consant) at 3500-4000 rpms and goes to idle. If I turn the motor off and back on I can run all day long and not go above 3500 rpms and nothing. Even the other day I ran offshore and on the way back in got it up to 4100 rpms and ran fine and did not shut down? I have back flush from the t-stats and it was fine and t-stats are fine (boiled them on stove). I took up to the dealer and put the scanner on it and no codes were found? Compresion on all cylinders were 130 (sweet). I thought that if it were overheat or oil pressure that it would have stored codes? Clueless at this point....
Joe
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Just a bunch of questions at this point...

1. Was the "constant" tone a solid "constant" tone or a pulsing "constant" tone? Just want to be sure we are talking the same tone to begin with.

2. Did you get a printout of the HDS output from the dealer?

3. Did they take it out on the water and see what was actually going on when there was an alarm?

4. Of the four warning lights (pgm, charge, oil and overheat)..what lights were on when the alarm was on.

5. The HDS does record and count the number of times there is an oil alert or an overheat alert. It is at the bottom of the data list. Oops! That was not a question.

6. When you took compression, did you have the throttle in full throttle only (not in gear)? The compression should be closer to 199- 228 lbs at 300 rpm. If you did not take it at full throttle, you are probably in good shape.

7. Did the dealer have any thoughts of what it could be?

8. What did the dealer recommend?
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

1. Solid tone
2. Yes
3. Not yet
4. Only two light, one green one red and yes the red light was on, oil emblem and temp emblem only
5. None
6. don't know yet
7. the ecm? or brain
8. water test maybe friday morn.
What might something like that cost? He was going to give me a cost in the morning but I would like to here your estimates? and what a o2 sensor would cost? I have been having this problem for years now and I wish I would have tried to resolve this when it started because it might have been covered under warranty... I just kicked myself....
Joe
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

It is hard to determine the cost. Figure whatever time it takes to get the HDS hooked up and the time to take the boat out and back and make it fail times their hourly rate.

Some dealers have a flat rate for something like that...we charge by the hour.

They will be able to see and record what each sensor is telling the ecm as it is giving you trouble.

You will just have to go from there. If the problem is not clear to them, they can send the data to Honda to get their opinion.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

The ecu is around $976. o2 sensor is $197...as they said.

If they think it is an ecu, see if they will borrow one off another motor that they have to try...unless they will guarantee that it will fix it.

If they do not have one, sometimes their Honda district service manager might have one for test purposes. He may or may not have one.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Okay took it for a water test today and the alarm went off and went into safe mode. The verdict is that it is overheating on the starboard side and the tech. said that he thinks it could be a head gasket or a warped head? Well my question is if a compression test was done and done right wouldn't that have shown up? At least I know what the problem is now. I am still wondering why it is not storing any codes? Well they first want to drop the lower unit and change pump out and check everything to make sure there is no blockage then we will see about the head????
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

A compression test might not neccesarily show a head gasket leak. They are typically done with the engine cold or near cold and many head gasket leaks don't manifest themselves until the mating surfaces are hot enough for some distortion to take place.

On your car, a tech would pressuize the cooling system or the combustion chamber or both with air to identify coolant passage abnormalities. The problem with an outboard is that the cooling system is "raw water" and is open to the atmosphere and, at least to my knowledge, can't be effectively pressurized.

Also, the exhaust is usually cooled by the water flowing from the engine. So, a "cylinder leakdown test" might indicate an improperly closing exhaust valve rather than a headgasket defect as any air that escapes the cylinder out the exhaust could be coming from either one. So, in your shop's defense, they may be giving you their best shot at trying to figure it out.

I have a theory that you could pull the thermostats and air charge the cylinder and identify a failed headgasket when air exits into that cavity. But, it's only a theory as it is something I have never actually tried. Good luck.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Since the problem is on the starboard side, has the starboard thermostat been changed or checked. It has two tests...it not only has to start opening at 140 deg F and be fully opened at 158 deg F., but also the lift height should be more than 3 mm.

If it does not fully open, it can cause that side to get hotter than the port side.

It is also wise to check/change the impeller, as they recommend, if it has not been changed for a while. A good impeller is pretty critical to the cooling process.

As for the pressurizing of the water system, as suggested by igmo... It is possible to pressurize part of the system at least up to the tops of the exhaust manifolds. Then it is hard to pressurize after that. There are also some bypasses that force you to keep the pressure down low so they are not activated. It is a valid test if you have water in your oil (although not perfect) , but the air will seep through any partially closed passage. So, I am not sure how it will help your situation, but it is an interesting thought. I will have to think more about this.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

If it only overheated on one side, then it is the thermostats. (there are two thermostats, one on each head).

I have not visited this forum for awhile and noticed the orginal honda dude (me) now has a sidekick (hondadude).
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Original Honda Dude,

Glade to see you back!! I wondered what happened to you. The new Honda Dude is pretty good too so you've got competition!

Actually you both post good and informative help. Thanks to both of you.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Okay here is the deal. The mechanic replaced the head gasket and the same problem... overheat at high rpms. Well now it is the midsection (case extension) of the motor that is corroded and has a blockage. I will tell you guys that I religiously flush,service and clean that motor (even the mechanic said it looked that way). But I think that it is a defective midsection like that thermastat house that was recalled. I don't know how much that will cost but the owner of the shop is leary of it.
 
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Re: Alarm but no codes?

chawk_man said:
I recall that there have been several discussions on various forums about corrosion in Honda midsections, especially where an extension has been fitted. Here is one, but there are many others. Do a Google search.

http://www.hondapartsus.com/forum4/mid-section-case-corrosion-th831.html

Not sure how that could cause your overheating problem.
Click to expand...

Where might you think it could be? It is only on the starboard side of motor? I call honda about the midsection corrosion. Did not go well...
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Not sure how or why corrosion in the midsection would cause only the starboard side to overheat.

But, reviewing these posts, I think this whole discussion is getting out of hand.
* Original problem - you're getting a continuous alarm and engine goes to SLOW mode. You can shut down, restart, and motor runs fine.
* You have a two-light display, and the red light comes on. That could be temperature, PGMFI, or ECM. Did the green oil pressure light stay on?
* You tested the t-states and they seem to be fine. You reverse flushed engine.
* BUT, dealer says HDS did not show any fault codes - overheat or low oil pressure.
* Dealer thought it was a head gastket or warped head, and replaced gasket (and presumedly checked for a warped head), which did not solve the problem.

My observations.....
1. Are you sure you are really overheating on the starboard side? How do you know? HDS should give a code for that. You should be able to place your hand on the head of a warmed up engine, without getting burned. Or use a heat probe. Compare both heads for significant heat differences.
2. If you are not really overheating, then I strongly suspect you have a bad ECM - continuous alarm, goes to SLOW mode, yet EPROM is storing no codes. It should.
3. As Hondadude recommended, swap out the ECM with a spare or loaner.
4. Another possibility is a faulty heat sensor that for some reason the ECM is not recording. Test it by disconnecting and see if alarm goes away.
5. If the starboard side is really overheating, Then I suspect you have a blockage in the cooling system. BUT, HDS should still through off a code, so I still would suspect the ECM PLUS a blockage.
 
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Re: Alarm but no codes?

1. Yes we had it hook to the HDS and it showed that code for that side plus we had a digital thermometer and that side was reaching higher temps. they said that that motor does not hold codes for overheating? Yes the port side stays cooler than the starboard
2. overheat
3.hope ecm is fine? no loaner I would have to buy
4. it is overheating
5 it does when connected and running but does not store code?
Now when they pulled the lower unit they broke the midsection where the brass washer is and now it is open to the outside. I have the pieces which are very corroded and a rubber bushing and some pieces that look to be brass also. When it broke it was because there was a piece of something jam in there and when it put pressure on that area where the brass washer is it broke. I guess?
joe
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Okay - I didn't see where the HDS had showed an overheat code. What you just described is consistent with my earlier post on corrosion in the intermediate unit. I recall that in some cases the corrosion actually ate through the housing. If I recall correctly, the consensus was that it was a design flaw and had to do with the reaction between aluminum, brass and steel around the intermediate bearing. The Honda Tech's on this forum may have more information and insight. At this point, I would ask your dealer to go back to Honda and see what they can do for you.

Keep us posted on your progress.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Well hooked up a pressure guage to a tee and took off the hose that goes from t-stat to exhaust jacket and on the starboard side 35psi on the port side 5psi. guess I need to find a blockage somewhere... ANY IDEAS?
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

I'm probably beyond my level of competence here, so it would be better if one of the Honda Tech's responded.

But here is how I would approach the problem. To make sure you get the blockage out, I would drop the lower unit again, remove the impeller and water pump base, then remove the port t-stat and give it a hard flush. If you just do a back flush, you have a high probability of just forcing whatever it is back into the water pump and impeller. Try to catch the discharge in a large bucket or pan to see if you can capture whatever it is. While you are at it, recheck all the connections.

Looking at my shop manual, I notice there is also a water relief valve on each side of the engine. It looks like that only effect's the flow from the exhaust manifold (after the t-stat connection), but not sure.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

I am with chawk_man...

It seems that the blockage is somewhere before the water gets to the thermostat. If I am understanding your test...if the blockage was after the thermostat, the pressure would build.

So removing the lower unit and flushing from the thermostat makes sense.

P 339 of the manual shows a pretty good (although not perfect) picture of the water flow.

There is a detour on that side through the vapor separator.

Also, as chawk_man said, there are bypasses on each side. If it is stuck open, it might not allow the pressure to build up and it may divert the water before it gets up through the power head. It is just a spring, plastic valve and grommets. It is under a cover held on by three bolts.

Mike
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

The blockage is somewhere from the top of the exhaust manifold out through the bottom where the exhaust+water exits? So it can only be the manifold or something passed that?
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

No - Just the opposite. The T-stat measures the water temp as it exits the block and piston walls, then the water passes down by the exhaust manifold. If you got low water pressure at the t-stat connector, that means the blockage is likely in water jacket or the block. As Hondadude said, if the blockage was beyond the t-stat in the exhaust manifold, you would get abnormally high pressure. Also, check the pressure relief valve down near the VST. In fact, I would check that first, before dropping the lower unit.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Yeah well you know where the water comes out of the t-stats and in the rubber tube to the exhaust manifold.. that is where I disconnected and tested from. I made a adapter and tested with the t-stats removed with a guage set-up. So I tested from the top of the motor down. Confusing I know... I did the test with a water hose to see if I had a blockage.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

I connected the hose to the tube off the t-stat. Four different times one starboard into the head, one port into the head, one starboard into the maniflod, one port into the manifold. Water flowed freely through all but the starboard manifold.
 
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Re: Alarm but no codes?

Okay -I'm confused. I probably need to see a diagram of how you hooked all this up.

However, from what you described it seems that you rigged up a test where you disconnected the hose coming from each t-stat and connected a water hose AND a pressure guage to each side of the t-stat hose connection. In three of the tests, you read only 5 psi on the pressure gauge, (on both sides of the port tube and the t-stat side of the starboard tube) indicating you had a free flow of water, but on the exhaust (outflow) side of the starboard t-stat you read 35 psi, indicating a blockage. Is that correct?

If so, then you have a blockage in the exhaust side of the starboard exhaust, OR, the starboard side water relief valve is stuck closed. Remove the relief valve (it's down near the VST) and see if it is stuck. Even if it does not appear to be stuck, plug the hole where the relief valve sits, and do your starboard side pressure test again. If psi drops to what the other tests read, replace the relief valve. If you still have high pressure, and strong flushing doesn't remove the blockage, then you need to remove the entire starboard exhaust manifold assembly and clear the blockage. THAT is a big job that will require a Honda certified tech to perform.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

I was confused too. I think I understand the test now too.

I think chawk_man has zeroed in on the area.

Mike
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

Do any of you know what happens after the water flows thru the t-stat down thru the exhaust manifold and down the tube going into the mounting case? My blockage is after the manifold... The manual really don't show it.
 
Re: Alarm but no codes?

I'm traveling and do not have my workshop manual with me. Refer to Hondadude's reference on the water flow diagram.

To the best of my recollection, the water travels down around the exhaust manifold and exhaust tubes. There is a pressure relief valve at the exhaust tubes. As I recommended before, REMOVE THE RELIEF VALVE AND RE-TEST.
 
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