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Honda 50 dropoff in RPM

bajajim

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"I've got twin Honda 50s o

"I've got twin Honda 50s on my 21' Arima fishing boat. Just had them tuned up and fluids changed. One engine works great, the other works great up to 4500RPM - then when trying to go to 5000RPM the engine drops RPM with increased throttle movement and will eventually die. Dropping back to 4500RPM "fixes" the problem and engine runs great again. Is this most likely a mechanical (linkage??) problem or engine electrical or fuel, or somoe sort of Honda "demon" living in my motor?"
 
"Could be the "Demons"

"Could be the "Demons"...

More than likely it is electrical or fuel.

It is probably not water in the fuel, but pump a sample into a glass jar and check to be sure.

Try something simple like fuel starvation first.

Did they change the fuel filter? A clogged fuel filter can cause this problem.

I do not know if you have one or two tanks, but switch the fuel lines from one motor to the other. If you have something wrong in the fuel line or fuel system, the trouble should follow from one motor to the other.

If no change, run the motors again and when it starts to fail, momentarily activate the choke for the failing motor and see what happens. If the motor picks up, then you may have something in one or more of your carbs that is being sucked into the jets and stopping fuel flow. The old fuel lines on your motor could be coming apart internally due to the crappy fuel we have.

If still no change, when the motor starts to fail again, have someone squeeze the fuel bulb.
If that helps, you may have a failing fuel pump or could be sucking air somewhere in the fuel system on the motor itself.

That should be a good start to see if it is a fuel issue."
 
"Thanks Mike. I'll give it

"Thanks Mike. I'll give it a try tomorrow. I've only got one tank and it feeds both motors so the tank might not be a problem, but the fuel line to the motor with the "problem" could be bad - I'll check it out. I'll try to get some new fuel filters tomorrow and see what happens. I agree about the Mexican gas - not really the best stuff around but it's the only stuff around. Thanks again."
 
"I think it could be the CDI,

"I think it could be the CDI, b/c the shop manual says the CDI can drop out cylinders 2 and 3 when in an alarm state. My Honda BF50A also drops RPM above 4000 rpm. How do you check the CDI?"
 
"Me

The manual shows a whol


"Me

The manual shows a whole series of resistance tests...which I think are a waste of time...assuming they can be done correctly.

You need to check the voltages going into the cdi from the exciter and the pulsers. Then you measure the voltages to each of the coils. If the voltages going in are ok and the voltages coming out are not...bad cdi.
Be sure to disconnect the kill switch lead at the cdi when doing the testing.

You will probably have to choke the motor out to stop it.

As a simple way of checking spark...have a buddy put a timing light on each cylinder and run the engine and make it fail. Compare what the timing light does on each. If all the same, the problem is not spark.

Also, be sure that you have new spark plugs and they are tight.

You may want to be sure that your tachometer is the correct type and set at the correct setting. It is possible you are hitting the rev limiter or you are having fuel issues like sucking air.

Do all the things listed in the above post and it can help you narrow it down."
 
"Mike, thanks for your advice.

"Mike, thanks for your advice.

I have had my 1999 Honda BF50A for 5 years and this "drop off of RPM" has occurred once in a while for all the time I have owned it. The Internet searches I have done have all shown such "drop offs" to be fairly common. Poor guys are searching for "demons" as mentioned.

You are right, air leaks in fuel lines, debris in fuel lines or carb jets, loose electrical connections, etc, all could cause this problem. So, over the years, I have rebuilt my carbs twice, and not just a quicky, but taking them apart on a lighted workbench and studying every nook and cranny with magnifying glass and compressed air and cleaner until I understood what every orifice did.

I replaced all gas line fittings and added a gas/water/separator/filter. I checked all electrical connectors, opening them and making sure they were good connections.

The Honda OEM tach has no adjustments on it, just the 5 wires, 2 for the light, two for the circuit board internal power and the one gray one for the signal.

Reading my Honda shop manual very carefully last night, I realized that I do not have a CDI at all but rather, an ICM (ignition control module.) Not that it makes any difference I suppose, since the manual still has about 100 resistances to check for the ICM.

I did do the check you mentioned on the spark plugs but I do not understand your comment about the kill switch. My understanding is that the kill switch will kill the spark by sending a ground to the CDI or ICM, so how can the signals be checked when the kill switch is pulled? What I think is needed is make sure the plugs are grounded when you check for spark. I did not do that when I checked for spark and I fried my voltage regulator. Now I just got to thinking that maybe I fried more than that. But that doesn't quite add up since I have had the RPM drop off problem off and on for 5 years.

But, I am rambling. Anyway, I happen to have a Fluke #83 DVM with a frequency setting. I hooked the meter to the gray and ground wire at the tach by skinning the wires and ran the engine this week with the garden hose on the lower unit. The drop off in RPMs happened to occur at about 3800 rpm,, and at exactly the same time the Fluke showed the same drop in RPMs, so that means the tach is fine and I am left with the original problem and it is somewhere else to be found.

By the way, the frequency on the Fluke had to be multiplied by 20 to get the right reading. I figure that is because the Fluke measures Hz, or cycles per second, so first of all, you have to multiply by 60 to get cycles per minute. Then you have to divide by three due to the three cylinders.

My latest idea is to change props. I got two more props I will check today. I say that because inthe shop manual, page 2-15 (Honda # (61ZV300E3) under the heading "Engine speed does not increase normally" and "engine speed fluctuated" it lists the propeller as being the prime suspect. I have tried everything else, so why not try this propeller test.

If that does not work, I will try the 100 resistance tests on the ICM and if bad, bite the $$$ bullet and replace the ICM. I mean, the ICM, per page 17-3, has the ability to drop the spark to cylinders # 2 and 3 if the ICM thinks the engine has exceeded 6600 rpm. Just like the Prius nowadays, what if my ICM is intermittantly thinking it has exceeded 6600 RPM? Dropping two cylinders would definitely give me a RPM drop and rough moment with the engine, wouldn't it?

Mike, brain gas occuring..... I just realized that your suggestion is accepted.... with a timing light in-line to either # 2 or # 3 plugs, I could see if I loose spark to plug when I am experiencing my RPM rumble. I'll do the RPM test as well as the prop test and get back...."
 
"Ok.

First, reviving it o


"Ok.

First, reviving it on a hose is not good. The engine will not rev up properly and will cut out even if everything is working right. It needs the backpressure of being in the water.

Also, just as a reminder...always put some duct tape over the water pickup that is just above the the prop on the horizontal fin...so the impeller does not suck air and burn up.

The Honda tach you have is the right one for your motor and it sounds like you have checked its accuracy.

Hopefully, when you did the carburators, you checked for cracks in the long skinny idle jets. Also...that you vacuum balanced the carbs.

When I said disconnect the kill leads, I mean't to actually disconnect the kill switch lead (open the circuit). I think it is a black/red lead. You should be able to disconnect it on the connecting block on the side of the engine.

Again, you will have to choke the engine out to stop it.

One other thing to check is the height of the motor on the transom. The horizontal plate just above the prop should be even with the bottom of the boat plus or minus about an inch.

It is probably not the cause of your problem, but should be right for everything else to work most efficiently.

Is it possible that your engine is detonating? If you have a prop that is too big in pitch, you could be putting too much load on the engine and causing problems.

If you have never had the engine above 5500 rpm, reduce the pitch of your prop. You said you have two different props. Pick the one with a pitch or two less than the one that is on the motor and see if it makes a difference.

Around 2003, there was a change in the ICM that would help eliminate the detonation if under a heavy load (overpropped). So it may be that a change in ICM as well as a prop may be the answer.

Work with the timing light, props, and kill switch leads and see what you come up with."
 
"Jim Harrison,
Sorry that I h


"Jim Harrison,
Sorry that I hijacked your thread topic with my own problems. How has your situation changed? Hope it is solved. Let us know. I should have opened a new topic I suppose. Anyway, let us know Jim. I will add my comments here soon. I went to the lake again yesterday with no better results. My drop off in RPM occurs at 3500. I will try to follow all Mike's advice in tests......"
 
My problem was "solved&#34

My problem was "solved" at least for now by replacing the small fuel lines feeding the carb. Might just be coincidedence but the problem went away. Perhaps under high demand (above 4000 RPM) the old (weak??) fuel lines were collapsing? Who knows but the problem seems to have gone away after the fuel lines were replaced
 
"Jim,
Good for you. I will a


"Jim,
Good for you. I will add your fuel line tests to Mike's tests, and keep on working on my problem. I removed the CDI (Shindengen CI580, Honda # 30580-ZV5-003) and all readings were "infinity." My DVM was working fine as all the other tests on the engine were fine such as 0.20 ohms on the charge coil and 304 ohms on the pulser coil. Still a mystery for me....."
 
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