Another sad Christmas story

"Another sad story before Chri

"Another sad story before Christmas… hello guys just here to tell you another sad story, I finally came back to Arizona after been gone for 3 months, I went to work on my 200 hp Johnson right where I left off, I was in the process of trying to reduce the amount of smoke my piece of s**t produces at idle so I went with larger idle jets, and just started “sneezing” and for the most part still smoked, well just messing around with it I checked compression, got only 70s on all six, yeah way way low, I’m just bummed as I do no see the light at the end of this tunnel as you might remember I replaced my two old 115 Mercs for a single 200 hp Johnson/Evinrude, thinking I would be up grading so I poured thousands of dollars on installation and the cost of the motor itself, only to end up just as bad as I was before, now I don’t know what to do even if I wanted to get rid of the boat I could not since I have put so much money on it, now I just mad and frustrated as after a year of constantly working on this thing I still not had a pleasant memory to tell… can anybody thing of anything??? Would re-ringing it would do? or should I do full rebuild?
Some of the thing it does are:
Does not revs over 42000 rpms
Idles poorly
It does starts right up
On the left side (portside) middle carb you can see little gas running in the middle of the carb throat(at idle) I guess that could cause rough idle... and you can see small particles of fuel being spitted from that carb as the throttle opens up…
any ideas?"

"I might be a bit 'brutal&

"I might be a bit 'brutal' in these 'Merry Wishes' times, but honestly I think You are into a project that might be out of your league of knowledge and equipment.
These engines are no space science, they are rather simple and simple natural laws rules.
If you want to play around with jets and fine tune out of factory setting, as a start you will need either a test tank and test prop suited, or a test bench with correct exhaust back pressure. The last option is to have to boat launched, which might be a lot of extra work.
Start by going back to 'square one': Factory setting.
Then cover up the boat and engine and hide it!
Take out the manual (OEM), turn off the TV and READ from first to last page, several times.
When you have read enough to manage all systems, then re-start the project with suitable equipment.

PS: Add a new comp reader on the wish list from Santa!"

Pull the powerhead and ship it

Pull the powerhead and ship it over here. I will fix it for you. No s.h...t.
Merry Christmas.

"My main concern is the low PS

"My main concern is the low PSIs, even when the manual states even compression is good, the manual does not states what the actual compression should be, I understand that for the most part bottom threshold compression should be even at about 100 PSIs.
The other issue in response to Morten is that the powerhead was a rebuilt, mounted on a 98 Johnson lower unit with low compression heads, as the seller told me, he stated that that was done by Johnson in order to compensate for the low octane in today’s gas… yeah I know probably bullshit. All the accessories makes the power head look like the ones from the early 90s (90-93 not a 98) so even trying to go back to factory settings is almost impossible as I really don’t know the year model of it, I have been trying to find a number on the block or some where in the motor that would tell me the actual year and model of the motor, I do have the plate(Welch plug) on the top center (rear) of the motor, but have no way to decipher it...
Morten I have read the manual many times but w/o knowing my year model how can I properly calibrate the motor to factory specs???

Dough thanks for the offer, I might just do that, but I dont know if I should just buy a rebuilt power head with warranty instead...but either way I'm just bummed about pouring so much money into this thing, but I guess the saying is true:
"there is only two happy days when you own a boat, one is the day when you buy it and the other one is the day when you sell it.... either way I love boating..."

"Morten: [b]PS: Add a new comp

"Morten: PS: Add a new comp reader on the wish list from Santa!

I acually went and got a second compression tester as I just could not believe that I would have 70s all around, I figure my tester was bad, but the second one gave me basically the same results..."

"Nick,
A rebuilt phead will n

"Nick,
A rebuilt phead will not come with carbs, ignition, etc. You will get a block with new pistons, bearings, rings....
As we have discussed, your problems are probably in a "Frankensteined" mis-matched part like the wrong intake/carbs or wrong flywheel or something like that. If you get a rebuilt powerhead, you will LIKELY TRANSFER YOUR PROBLEM TO THE NEW HEAD.

Also, to put a new head on, you still gotta take the old one off...

You will never get a better offer....pull that powerhead and ship it here. I will look at it on my test stand, and then actually put it on a boat. I have loads of parts to use for testing, and I have no doubt that I can get to the root of the problem. I will keep you completely informed (probably start a thread here on the progress and what is wrong), let you know ahead of time on all proposed parts expenses...

Shipping will be an expense...probably about $200 one way.

When I get it running right, I will ship it back, you bolt it back on and go. Do it all over the next month, taking my time, and you will be on the water by next boating season out there in AZ.

Alternately, here is an engine on ebay...and I could go over there to inspect before you buy. It looks real good. You could use the phead off it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120507383289&viewi tem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT"

"The amount of smoke your &#34

"The amount of smoke your "POS" produces at idle is probably caused by the carb that you see overflowing. RE: low compression, I would try some SeaFoam shock therapy, and decarb the engine. Old Smokey may just have a bad case of stuck rings. Should only cost you less than $10 to find out!"

"Martin, I did a decarb three

"Martin, I did a decarb three times this summer, once with the can sold by evinrude and twice with the liquid stuff from seafoam, and nothing changed, but it could be stuck rings for sure, but I might just take Doug's offer...
how did your rebuild turned out Dough??? the one you bought from universal???"

"Doug I looked at the video, t

"Doug I looked at the video, the motor looks very nice, but shut man I would just leave it as is and bolt it on my boat, I would not mess with the power head at all, one thing for sure, I noticed that the motor smokes just as much as mine.... man maybe the smoke issue is just me and is something that I just have to deal/live with and come to peace with... however I definitely need to get mine tuned right, so it will revup to the 5500 rpms that it should and also get it to idle better, I could not see if the motor on the video shakes like mine as the camera men was shaky himself, I'll post a video clip of mine idling so u guys can compare probably next Monday after the holidays..."

"Nick, whatever you want to do

"Nick, whatever you want to do.....

Remember, the motor on ebay is in Tampa, and I will have to travel about 4 hrs the day after xmas to look it over for you. I will take my tank, and run it under back pressure, not on muffs. That will give me a real feel for the idle speed and smoothness. I will take my temp gun, comp gauge, and do the tests with those. I will read the plugs as best I can, and look at the lower unit oil. I will pull the HS jets and look for crud. I will chk the shifting and listen for unusual noises. I will assess the upper main bearing looking for play in the crank top.

Want me to do anything else? Is your motor a 20" shaft? That's why I thought you would only want the phead...yours might be a 25.

Gotta know soon. Also, I really want to know what is wrong with yours. You have been at that motor for over a year...

Let me know. PM me with your phone number...maybe we should talk."

"Doug dont worry about the mot

"Doug dont worry about the motor in Tampa, I'm going to send you my powerhead, honestly I have a feeling that my issues are going to be easy, possibly something stupid is just matter of swaping parts and figuring out the right parts that my motor needs to have on in order to work properly, you mentioned that you have a 225 set of carbs and throttle assembly w/idle screws and stuff, with your tank or on the boat you should be able to tune it and time it right, I mean for the most part you of know all the issues with this thing."

"I installed the old idle orif

"I installed the old idle orifices, which in turn made engine smoke like it did before… a lot, but idled good, just lots of smoke, everything went back to normal, idle about 800 RPMs, with the other orifices that I had installed I could not get the motor to idle under 1100, so I guess the bigger the orifice the more RPMs you have at idle, I will settle for the smoke I going to try Amsoil’s 100:1 synthetic outboard oil which claims that 100:1 is all you need even at WOT…I’m not messing with more orifices, I bought two sets of orifices 7 seven bucks and some change a piece that is times 12, I guess I would have to spend a couple of hundred bucks on orifices before I could dial the motor better and achieve the less smoke at the right idle RPMs goal, now idle timing is right on the dot a 6 degrees at about 800 RPMs, I’m sure once in gear and on the water RPM will drop any where between 700-750, tomorrow I going to take the middle port side carburetor off and see why is dripping, the fuel seems to come running down from one side of the butterfly/carburetor plate and on to the carb, is not a drip nor is a stream, but bad/good enough to be noticed, that could be causing the extra smoke…while checking the WOT timing (Joe’s style) I noticed no difference between the readings while cranking with the white and black wire disconnected or connected( as when the wire is connected it should advance the timing).. also I noticed that when the wire is connected the idle timing stays at 6 degrees, but when I start the motor with the wire disconnected the readings are erratic jumping thru different degrees ranging from 8-12 BTDC to 6 ATDC so I’m wondering if my fast start feature is working properly or may be I’m not disabling it right, any ways with the wire on or off my WOT readings were @24 BTDC about 6 degrees ahead or faster than what my motor should be (16-18 degrees) and that is at cranking speed so at actual WOT in the water I guess it is about 32 degrees as at actual speed time is advanced by 4 degrees when running IAW Joe, but I guess I’ll have to check that at the lake Doug’s style hanging from the back of my boat hahaha… any ideas??? About the carb or on the proper way to disable the fast start feature???"

"A question.
Further up you m

"A question.
Further up you mentioned 'low compression heads'.
The 200 used PN 397860 and 398269 as 'normal'.
However there is a 185 version that uses the 'Low Comp' heads 433512.
If your engine is equipped with those heads, you have a 185 and not a 200 engine and need to jet it accordingly! This may even explain your lack of RPM.
Check BRP parts, 1989, 200STLCEB."

"I don’t see a part # on my he

"I don’t see a part # on my heads, is there a particular place for the part # to be embossed/stamped on the head???"

I'm afraid the only number

I'm afraid the only number you will find on the heads are the casting number and not the part number.
The difference is normally in machining of the combustion chamber.
The low reading of your comp test further indicates low-comp heads installed.
Best way to verify is to remove the heads and compare to correct heads.

"Morten, but don’t you think t

"Morten, but don’t you think that even with low compression heads my readings are kind of low ( granted compression is even across all cylinders), if I take the head off to check it out I will need new head gaskets in order to put it back together right???"

"As long as the comp is even o

"As long as the comp is even on the cyl's, I would not worry, whatever the readings are and the engine IDLES without having to advance the timing far off 'initial setting'.
You will need new gaskets, and post a pick of the heads if possible.
Would be 'nice' if someone else on the board had a 200/225 head pic to compare."

"I'm going to figure out w

"I'm going to figure out why the carb is leaking tomorrow, is there a gasket between the crankshaft housing and the block??? I'm thinking about removing the housing to check the cylinder walls and check the pistons and rings, make sure the rings are not stuck... is there an easier way to check for that?"

"To split the block you need t

"To split the block you need to remove the PH from leg, a major operation!
If removing carbs, you probably need new o-ring seals."

"Any ideas why would the carbu

"Any ideas why would the carburetor could be letting gas zip around the throttle plate, float too high? The o-ring perhaps? With the motor off I pump the fuel bulb till it gets hard but there is no signs of any fuel zipping…"

"It may be as you mention the

"It may be as you mention the 'O' ring, or float level.
It may even be the upper carb body!
The 185 and 225 (89) use same body, the 200 a different one.
If you are running 185 (low comp) heads and 200 carbs you may be 'off'.
Mixing around with components like looks to have been done in your case can create the most strange things.
In your case I see two solutions if 185 heads:
Get a set of 185/225 carbs and jet according to 185 or switch heads to 200 and use the 200 carbs.
You may even switch heads to 225 and get 225 carbs as well?
Sit back and calculate before you keep on."

"Thought I would add this note

"Thought I would add this note for more confusion. I had two 1987 225 powerheads. They are 2.7 litre engines. A local bought one of them, and was all excited to get it. He has a mid 90's 200HP engine, which he said runs fine. He said that there is a pro on Scream & Fly who explained that if you switch the heads from the 225, and re-jet the carbs, you get an extra 68HP with very little effort and expense. I agree with Mort. I would check out the head issue, especially since your original seller said something about low compression heads."

"I have 1996 200 Hp heads that

"I have 1996 200 Hp heads that I can measure.
Guaranteed to be PN 436892.
(I am NOT going to measure them unless someone requests that I do...so if you want the dimensions, let me know.)
Note that the 1996 225 also uses the same head.
This is the same head used on both the 200 and 225 Evintudes from 1995 thru 1998. This head is used on up thru 2001 on Johnsons.
You should compare PNs on the BRP website to see."

Dough do you still have those

Dough do you still have those throttle plate/carbs??? if so shot me a pm so we can deal...

"Nick,
The only carbs (pl

"Nick,
The only carbs (plastic body/throttle plate assy) that I have now are from a 200 HP, used on 1995 and 1996 years.
The assy numbers are 436550 and 436551. I also have the correct air silencer for those carbs.
Using those carbs would require careful study of your intake manifold to be sure they are compatible with the intake's air and fuel passages...you have primer hose nipples and such to consider.

BUT....I hesitate to deal with you on them. At this point, you have so much going on with that motor that I think you would be wasting your money by shotgunning carbs on your rig.

I was very surprised that you are just now finding the "melting stator" problem under the flywheel around your timer base. That alone would cause your lack of WOT RPM if the timer base was sticking. It could also cause the high idle you were experiencing. I am surprised because I would think you would have seen this LONG ago. So many posts on that subject...so many posts...

If you gotta have the carbs, well, you gotta have them, and we can deal if you insist. I do not recommend such a swap at this time with the other problems you have just discovered.

I really, really suggest that you get on Evinrude parts site and study, study, study the parts diagrams comparing what you have to what you see on the diagrams, and thereby help ID your year range. Also, I get the distinct idea that you don't have an OMC manual yet....if not...get one!

I will be glad to help you if I can, but I don't want to help you go down the old money pit more than you already have."

"Dough thanks for your honesty

"Dough thanks for your honesty, I would have appreciated some of that from Robert when he sold me the motor, but a lot of it was my fault I should had been more careful and inquisitive about the whole deal. Now about the stator, I have seen/noticed the melting a while back, but thought nothing of it as my motor started and the idle timing was good, and there was no signs of a sticking timer base, I'm surprised that the tech I just to take the motor to did not pointed it to me since after the installation it went back to him at least three times because it would just not run good, needles to say he never got it right, and this is a shop in Tucson with a good reputation, but the guy never showed interest on getting to the bottom of the problem, every time I would mention to him the issue of not running at full RPM range he would say that I really didn’t want to run that motor at 5000 RPMs anyways, and that is when I stopped taking the boat to him, but I just going to keep at it, buying another motor is out of the question so I'll get to the bottom of these hopefully before the summer...
I also just found out that I have a CDI power pack (the blue one) which according to the catalog it supposed to be used with certain timer base (a blue one in color as well) I will double check everything again and match part numbers and stuff and see what happens with that...just like you said too many issues, just like a mine every time I dig I find more and more stuff."

"Yeah..exactly...that is what

"Yeah..exactly...that is what I was referring to...the fact that you may have a mismatch somewhere...specifically, the CDI powerpack with the original timer base. Might explain the very erratic timing results you are seeing at idle when it jumps around on you. Just cannot tell because everything is so pieced together. Or, it may just be fine...we don't know at this point.
I am also wanting to know if you have a finger ported block, or not. That MIGHT explain some of your running problems, as the fuel induction MAY be different for a finger ported motor. You originally thought you were getting a '98 engine, but Robert was referring to the p'head rebuild date...(remember?),so it could be a finger ported block with older carbs and induction. 1992 and older is NON finger ported, 1993 up is finger ported.

I am just guessing and speculating here. Just guessing.

Anyway, I have the carbs, timer bases, stators, and powerpacks for say a 1994 and up 200, 225 looper. Parts that I know are used but good.

Questions:

1. Do you have the water valving system on the starboard side that is throttle controlled? 1992 and older.
2. Do you have the air silencer that has bolts around the perimeter that fastens it to the front of the motor? 1993 1994 or older depending on model number suffix.
2a. Exactly where do the primer lines attach to the intake? Front, under the air silencer, or in the back of the intake?
3. Have you ever had the heads off, so that you can inspect the lower part of the cylinder to determine finger-porting question? (As well as the cylinder wall condition considering the 70 psi comps you are getting.)
4. On your carbs, how many screws holding the side labyrinth plate on? 2,4, 5?
5. What is the bore diameter of the venturi at the back of the carb at the mating surface with the throttle plate? A 200 carb will be just a hair shy of 1 1/2 inches, maybe 1 15/32.
6. On your throttle plates, on the side, do you have a plate held on by 4 screws or is there a plug installed? (Look at the parts diagrams to see what I mean by that.) You will see the diff between years...
7. I notice that your pic shows a throttle butterfly with two holes, AND three screws holding it to the throttle shaft. I always thought three screws indicated a 225 carb....The 1996 200 carb I have in my hand has two throttle butterfly plate screws.
Experts? True or not?
8. Is the air flow path from front of carb to the reeds free from "steps". No major size differences in the air flow venturi bore size from front to back?
9. Are all carbs the same? There should be casting numbers stamped in the plastic body of the carbs, as well as on the throttle plates. These are not Evinrude part numbers, but casting numbers as Mort noted above regarding the head castings.
10. Have you ever had the flywheel off, to inspect the FULL travel of the timerbase? Making sure that it moves all the way? If you do take the flywheel off, try to get the P/N of the timer base and write it down for reference.
Your CDI powerpack will have a P/N on it as well.
113-4037 is 1993 back, and 113-6212 is 1994 and up. I just noticed...the timer base number stays constant from 1988 to 1997. It is CDI number 133-3533. That is a significant point...if the timer base is the same through all those years, YOU CAN'T have a mismatch in those ignition parts. But, there may be a diff between the Evinrude stock timer bases....ahhhh....too much to figure out here...
Just noticed...the stator P/N changed in 1993, so there could be a mis-match there...
While you are in there...MAKE SURE the flywheel magnets, especially the center magnet ring, are not loose. Center magnet ring is for timing, large outer magnets are for charging/ignition power.
11. What does your timing spark advance linkage look like? Note the completely different look of the old 1992 vs the newer 1993 design. On the cylinder/crankcase pages ref number 81.
Zoom in.

Try to note the answers to all this, because these details can help pinpoint the year range of your engine parts.

Let me know if I can help."

wheeeew man.....ur getting goo

wheeeew man.....ur getting good!!

"Maybe, but you'd never hi

"Maybe, but you'd never hire me....would ya?"

"Thanks Dough, I start getting

"Thanks Dough, I start getting you the answer 1 by 1 and go from there, thanks for the help..."