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2001 130 power loss above 4000 rpm

S

scotstev

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"The dealer has had my Honda 1

"The dealer has had my Honda 130 now for 3 weeks and has not found the problem, I have twins on my World Cat. This Port engine Powerhead and head were replaced 150 hrs ago...engine runs smooth but will not exceed 5100 RPM. Props,all fuel filters(high pressure too) changed out., compression tested ok after decarb...was 170 to 190 now 210, fuel pressure perfect,fuel ok (ran on seperate tank,swapped ECM, Fuel rail from other engine..checked valve adjustment... was ok,engine is consuming about 24% more fuel than Starboard...Sea trials run after each swap...the high pressure filter did make a difference of about 300 rpm from 4800 WOT to 5100 WOT....these are Counter rotating and the Starboard engine run at 5600 rpm...the dealer is stumped and is waiting on input from a Honda Tech...does this sound like too little spark?? Could the voltage be dropping in the plug wires at higher rpm...could there be a problem with the ignition? again no trouble codes and they hooked up the fuel pressure gauges and ran it on the water to full rpm without a drop in the fuel pressure plus they changed out the ecm and fuel rails?? Help?"
 
did they update the VST tank?

did they update the VST tank?

check low pressure fuel pump?

run on an aux fuel tank?
 
Thank you for your reply!...ye

Thank you for your reply!...yes the VST was updated...they said fuel pressure and vacuum was ok on a sea trial test @ WOT set up with their gauges..not sure if they specifically tested low pressure pump. Yes it was run on Aux tank with no change...do you suspect fuel problem over ignition problem? what about pulser coils and ignition coils and wires? Could that be the culprit?? will be talking to the shop this afternoon...FYI..He is a Honda certified guy with many years experience..he has changed out both of my powerheads and heads in the past...i worry that they are overlooking the simple stuff...it is my understanding that the diagnostics on this engine are somewhat limited.Again thanks!
 
"A 24% difference in fuel cons

"A 24% difference in fuel consumption is telling and seems very high. Simple things first. Let's assume the engine is functiong correctly.

(1) Is it possible that your gauges are simply malfunctioning? Did you check the tach and fuel usage with independent meters/testers?
(2) Is the port engine mounted correctly and does it trim the same as the starboard one? Check under max power. If it slips more into the down position that could account for the slower RPM's and fuel burn. Under power, vary the port engine trim and see if it significantly affects RPM's.
(3) Could you have a malfunctioning trim tab on the port side (assuming you have them) - possibly stuck in down position a notch or two?
(4) Have you checked the port engine prop to make sure it is within specs and correctly matches the starboard one? Is the spindle clear of rope and/or fishing line?"
 
Thank You for the input …The h

Thank You for the input …The higher fuel consumption is also relative to the throttle positions…I had to run port at WOT to sync (by ear and tach) with stbd at ¾ throttle…it had bad carbon build up…it seems that the timing is off but it is correct..the ecm was swapped out…can the pulser coil or diode cause a problem like this or the ignition coils/wires? Gauges are not the problem..did fuel consumption based on miles and refilling twice no gauge involved. Tach was checked. Engine ran fine in mounted position for 6 years and no changes were made..have no trim tabs (Cat Hull)…prop is clear and just back from prop shop….please keep the ideas coming… it is truly appreciated..i like these motors and don’t have the funds to repower!!
 
"I assume they have already ch

"I assume they have already checked...
-Thermostat stuck open (causing the engine to run cold and causing injectors to stay open longer and using more fuel
-PCV Valve
-Vent for the fuel system
-Screens in Idle Air Control Valve
-Dirt in Throttle body
-Throttle body actually wide open at full throttle
-Engine temperature or air temperature sensor s within limits but maybe at extreme end.
-Throttle position sensor output correct for full throttle

You keep asking about spark. I also presume that they have already measured the high voltage on each spark plug wire with a high voltage tester.

If your Honda guy has replaced the power heads etc in the past, he should know that engine inside out and he/she has probably already checked all the above.

Sometimes it takes a while for Honda Tech Rep to get back to them if that is who they are waiting for. They are almost constantly traveling and the guy who covers Florida also has the Caribbean."
 
Thanks Mike..they have checked

Thanks Mike..they have checked all of the items except I do not know if they did the high voltage test...the reason I am asking about ignition is that they have gone through the fuel system fairly extensively...a friend had a similiar issue on a Yam 4 stroke and it was a coil failing at high rpm as well as a spark plug wire...was not allowing full ignition at high rpms....i will speak to the shop today and see if they have done the high voltage test...can that be done at high rpm? What all is provided in the diagnostics in the ECM? Again thanks.
 
"The ecm only sends a code if

"The ecm only sends a code if any of the sensors are out of limits. It monitors...
-ECM
-MAP
-PULSER COIL SENSOR
-ECT SENSOR
-THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR
-PULSAR COIL SENSOR
-IAT SENSOR
-IAC VALVE
-IAT SENSOR
-OVERHEAT SENSOR
That is pretty well it. Communication is only by a blinking light.

The high voltage tester can be used at high speeds. It depends on if the leads are long enough. The simple ones only test one plug wire at a time. I would imagine there are multicircuit ones out there, but are probably very expensive.
At least moving it from plug wire to plug wire will allow comparison between cylinders.

I used one today and it led me directly to a bad spark plug."
 
"Hi Scott,
You might want to

"Hi Scott,
You might want to lift the power head from the mounting case and check for carbon build up in the exhaust passage(pipe). If the exhaust pipe is blocket (due to carbon deposits), the engine will have a fairly normal behavior but will have poor hight rpm performance.

Regards,
Staffan"
 
Thank you both for the advice

Thank you both for the advice and info..They did perform the high voltage test and found no faults...they also pulled the lower unit and looked up the exhaust pipe which I assume is the same as lifting the powerhead and looking down?..I suspect the engine maybe simply loading due to a problem in the lower unit gear or the prop that is restricting the motor causing the carbon build up and loss of high rpms...can you swap counter rotating lower units to check this possibility?? Thanks Again..will keep posting till this is over.
 
"I belive that you need to fin

"I belive that you need to find out why the carbon is building up. The engine is running rich, could you explain "compression tested ok after decarb...was 170 to 190 now 210", decarb?
Compression should be 199-228, any cylinder.
A problem in the lower unit is unlikely,any metall debis in the gear oil?
I do believe that you need to lift the PW and investigate the interface between PW and mounting case in order to be sure no carbon."
 
"Lifting the engine requires r

"Lifting the engine requires removing everything below the case where the motor sits just to get to the bolts that hold the engine on.

You should be able to switch the two lower units. The overall performance of the boat will change since the props will turn inward instead of outward. I am not sure if it will be a conclusive test, but may be worth a try."
 
Have you checked engine oil qu

Have you checked engine oil quality? -Very black?
Leaking piston rings might be the trouble and cause for the carbon issue.
Rg/Staffan
 
"The powerhead was factory new

"The powerhead was factory new 150 hrs ago and 1 year old... same for the cylinder head under the extended warranty program for cracked heads/blocks by Honda.they found erratic compression in the cylinders between 170 and 190.the shop ran a shock treatment of Ring Free through the motor for two hours at the slip and rechecked the compression and found top 3 cylinders at 210... bottom cylinder at 170...valve adjustment brought all cylinders between 210 and 220...again this is due to carbon buildup...a symptom but not the problem...motor still would not turn up past 5100 rpm and was weak above 4000....Staffan, the oil was chnged at 20 hrs after new powerhead and was very clean and again at 150 hrs and was also clean/clear like new...something is holding this engine back...i hope to discuss several options with the shop next week...the boat is just sitting now waiting on the next plan of action...meanwhile i am up to like 7 hrs labor plus parts....getting more frustrated by the day...if they can't find the problem i am at a loss of what to do next...the shop has always been very professional and performed good work in the past."
 
"Scott,
Are you saying that t

"Scott,
Are you saying that the port engine has never reved more than 4800-5100 at WOT after the replacement of the PWH and Head? Or, did the rev problem come gradually?
Was the new PWH and Head completely clean or fully assambled and tested before installment? If not, did your current shop do the jobb with transfering all items from the old block?
7 hrs labor plus parts without finding the problem is not acceptable!
RG/Staffan"
 
Well ...the fact is that it wa

Well ...the fact is that it was happening even before they replaced the powerhead/head which was factory assembled and tested...i attributed the power loss to the old PWH or head...it still lagged the stbd by about 400-500 rpm...so i changed out the throttle cables which were old...had the props both rebuilt and changed out filters etc...looking for the simple problem...i had not been filling the boat up with fuel much due to the cost so i was unaware of the fuel burn being so bad until i finally tested it...so long story short i tried during the last year to fix it myself and finally gave up and took it in...the problem was gradual but they did find the high pressure filter was causing about 300 rpm of the loss...i hope the shop is fair with me on the hours...
 
"As the port BF130 reving prob

"As the port BF130 reving problem does not seem to be fully correlated to the changing of PWH/H etc.
makes me believe that you might have a prop/pitch issue.
Did you buy the World Cat. new together with the two BF130´s?
Have you ever seen the port BF130 rev 5500 at WOT (Manual, 5000-6000)?
If not, the port BF130 might be work loaded to high from the very beginning.
Have you checked the item numbers on the two props´s – dia, pitch, brand etc.?"
 
"The props were rebuilt just a

"The props were rebuilt just a few months ago...we did pull them and send them in for measurement again just in case...they should be back on the 19th...Honda reviewed the testing done with the shop and had nothing new to offer...they state that the engine is within spec (5100rpm)...if the prop is right they stated that there is nothing else they can do...so come get the boat and pay us for our efforts....end of story.They also mentioned that the engines are now 9 years old and maybe I should consider repower with Honda 150's....ha..fat chance now...would have considered Hondas again up until now..i will get the boat back Monday and start my own process of swapping parts out! I will let you know if the props did help any but i am not holding on to any hope.They said they have 7 hrs shop time plus parts but say that they will "discount the labor rate"...my guess is they will reduce from $125 hour to $100 hr and stick a fat $750 bill in front of me for not repairing the problem...oh yeah they did replace the high pressure filter and pickup 300 rpm.....hopefully they will be fair...right now I am just disappointed after 5 weeks in the shop.
angry.gif
"
 
Well...the first prop shop lef

Well...the first prop shop left a heavy cup in the port prop! ...we reconditioned and matched the props at a different prop shop ...port now runs 5500 rpm and stbd 5600rpm...we assumed all along the props were ok...that was all of our mistake. The shop discounted its hours and i pick it up tomorrow...the good news is the engines run great and have had a thorough checkup..thank you every one for your help I learned alot!
 
"Scott - Happy to hear all is

"Scott - Happy to hear all is well. After 55 years of repairing "stuff" my golden rule is "simple things first." Too bad you had to go through all that, but at least you now know you have two engines in top notch shape. BTW - That is one beautiful boat."
 
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