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Winterizing with out engine running

W

wblazer

Regular Contributor
"Hi Guys,

After reading a c

"Hi Guys,

After reading a current starter related discussion, I have a question. In the process of changing a starter in my 1986 4.3, not going well.The wire terminal broke off first and getting the other stuff out of the way is taking a lot of time. Have a heavy work schedule next week and starting to get cold here. Can the engine be winerized with out being able to crank it over? And what are the things I need to do?
I normally suck the anti freeze in with the muffs and fog untill it stalls. Thanks for any help given."
 
"A portion of the engine winte

"A portion of the engine winterizing process involves removing the previously acidic and alkaline oil.
In order to protect your engine bearing surfaces for the lay-up duration, the engine must be started and run upon finishing the oil/filter change.
This is also the oportunity to Fog the engine.

Kill the ignition while continuing to fog (carbureted engines)..... do not simply let the fogging oil kill it for you!!!!
Consider that most marine V-8's have a dual plane intake manifold... fog appropriately!

Sucking antifreeze up through the drive under the guise of it offering adequate freeze protection is a misnomer at best..... use caution, and always drain everything afterwards if you insist on doing this.
The reasons involve: Duration, dilution, temp, stat operation, etc.

."
 
"i know alot of guys who chang

"i know alot of guys who change the oil in the spring cause of condensation issues.

To winterize drain the block and manifolds on both sides. Poke all the drain holes with a stiff wire to make sure rust has not blocked the holes, i do the poking soon as i open the drain.

What i do is pull the hoses off the t-stat and pour some anti freeze in. The long hose coming into the t-stat that leads from the transom i make sure to pour anti- freeze in till i see some trickle out the drive.

Some people close the drains and pour the anti=freeze in and let it sit.

I know people who fill up the block and manifolds with anti-freeze, good idea cause it cuts down on rust inside the mani's and block.

The above is for raw water cooled motors, fw cooled is another story.

I never fog for just one winter layup.

PS i have seen starters buried so bad that they had to yank the motor to change em. And while at it painted the whole motor and starter and oil pan, 4-5 times. i myself painted the entire motor and pan and the back of the motor 4 times when i had to pull the motor."
 
"Ricardo,

Not saying you ar

"Ricardo,

Not saying you are wrong and I am not trying to push my opinion.

I have been winterizing my boat and many many others for many years. I have never fogged my engine or 99% of anyone elses 4 stroke engines.
It was done by customers request only.

I have never changed my oil in the fall when winterizing it (boat is a 1987)

I never do any service to a boat in the fall if avoidable. The spring is the time as it is the only real way to know for sure that all is good and ready for the summer. Especially the outdrive service, winter cold does a real number on old seals and if you just drain and refil the outdrive in the fall there is no way to determine if the seals made it thru the winter.

I do agree for LONG term storage I would do what you have stated but for 3-6 months I do not feel it is that critical.

Of coarse siding on the side of caution is always best but it is not always necessary."
 
"Kghost, I understand..... no

"Kghost, I understand..... no issue here. The conversation is a good one!
However, I am surprised at your take on this with you being an engineering type.
There are test results suggesting that Fogging does protect, although the degree of protection is questionable given that engine and fuel tank condensation is a bit of a myth intrinsically. And of course a degree of ambient humidity plays a role as well!

As a young boy in the 50's, I can remember watching my grandfather or a farm neighbor fire up an engine that had been sitting for years. Doubt much if any storage procedures had been used prior. The tractor or truck seemed to be just fine..... probably ran for ten more years!

I participate in the technical section of an active marine forum, so I not only feel obligated to recommend these measures (as protocol), but also wish for the average non-mechanical person (doing his own work) to error on the side of being safe!

I am a firm believer in the oil change recommendation prior to lay-up..... even if only 3-6 months. If you are going to change it anyway, this would be the time to do so. I also believe that engine/oil condensation damage is largely a myth!

What I am apposed to, is the recommendation of raw water pump impeller installation at lay-up time...... this is referred to all too often and it makes ZERO sense. Install during your re-commissioning as to prevent the typical "Set" that these take if left in place for the off season.


chiefalen , Unless you know beyond an absolute doubt that "dilution" has not changed the level of protection of your E/G/H2O mixture, always drain this anti-freeze after you use your method. Air will not freeze and cause expansion damage!
I do agree on the anti-corrosion benefits from this.

."
 
"Straight anti-freeze is not g

"Straight anti-freeze is not going to freeze. There are many who use 50-50 mixed in the bottle and bought that way.

Used in automobiles here in the N/E forever, i never had a cracked block when i use the 50/50.

As i posted i drain, and then pour some in the hoses, the water pump, manifold and block, it trickles out a little and i close up the drains.

My old piece of ---- is a '86 also."
 
You should use RV Antifreeze a

You should use RV Antifreeze as it is eco friendly.

Ethelyne clycol is NOT!
 
R.V. antifreeze is the only wa

R.V. antifreeze is the only way to go. B.T.W. I live in Massachusetts and my son put the store bought 50/50 mix in my pickup truck one year and the coolant in the bottom rad hose froze. Since then I always mix my own slightly stronger than 50/50.
 
"I think a lot of the differen

"I think a lot of the difference of opinions may stem from where you are located. For instance I live in the pacific northwest and our main concern here is from moisture and humidity more than freeze damage, although we may get a couple of weeks of sub-freezing temps that can crack blocks if the engine was never drained properly. Our main concern is rust, rot, and mold growth so we winterize with those in mind. Fogging oil, proper rain covers, make sure the bow is up and the drain plug is out, space heaters, full fuel tank with stabilizers and seafoam, etc.

Now my Father-in-law lives in Saskatchewan CA and their biggest concern is freeze damage and really no concern for moisture problems like we have here. They just drain completely and add anti-freeze where ever they can.

My point is winterize to your environment."
 
Most states have gone away fro

Most states have gone away from etheylene glycol antifreeze used in boat winterizations. Some have written laws against its use. Think about a fairly large lake where 1000's of boats are used and each one used E/G antifreeze. It gets into the water system and is not good for anything or anyone in the water.

Where I worked when in the business they outlawed E/G and mandated the use of RV.

They also outlawed the use of pressure treated wood ( for docs) made with arsnic in the treating process so it would not leach into the water.......

again ECO friendly
 
while we are on this subject a

while we are on this subject and im just asking from a not knowing standpoint. what is the downfall of using straight antifreeze i have been driving for some 30 yrs now and have always ran straight antifreeze i have read that with a 50/50 mix you get max cooling from it but other than that what is the reasoning for the dilution
 
In reading Kghost's recomm

In reading Kghost's recommended winterization procedure I have one question. I read somewhere else that anti-freeze can get in the cylinders thru the exhaust valves when poured into the exhaust manifolds. Is this a real concern/problem???
 
Steve:

If you didn't dr

Steve:

If you didn't drain the block then the antifreeze was diluted from the residual water. Never run pure anitfreeze; it must be diluted to keep it working properly. I run a 60:40 ratio of antif/water to get -35 F. protection. Note: The water should be distilled.
 
"Bill:

Only if there is a l

"Bill:

Only if there is a leak in the cooling jackets of the manifold, riser or elbow."
 
I totally agree with Guy G. Yo

I totally agree with Guy G. You must diloute the antifreeze for it to get down to -35 degrees. In Pa. we always get some weather down to about
-5 or -10 deg. and I never had a problem but that was with the glycol-ethanol (old stuff). I'll read the label on this red RV type because I know some do come already mixed in the jug. Bob
 
RV antifreeze does not get mix

RV antifreeze does not get mixed with anything

It is ready to use out of the bottle.

Most today are good for -40 to -50 degrees F
 
"As surprising as it may seem

"As surprising as it may seem running pure antifreeze can actually cause overheating problems when it`s -30 or lower. Without any water added to dilute it, pure antifreeze will become quite thick and almost be like jello.When this happens, your waterpump will cavitate and by that I mean it will spin a "hole" in the antifreeze and stop circulating it.When this happens, the rad would be cold but the engine would cook.Usual happens when driving at highway speeds in very cold conditions.
In summetime under severe hot conditions, a car with pure antifreeze may tend to overheat because even though antifreeze raises the boiling point when mixed with water, water has better cooling capacity than antifreeze.
I have an older merc 351 in my boat with closed cooling . If I run 50/50 antifreeze it runs at about 180 deg.If I run a dilutes mixture of 20% antifreeze, it will run at 170 deg. I haven`t tried it but I would wager it would run quite a bit warmer with pure antifreeze.
In summary, the more antifreeze you add the higher the boiling point and the lower temps it will be good for without freezing but at the same time more antifreeze means poorer heat dissipation so motor will run warmer.
Also, antifreeze doesn`t freeze but the colder it gets, the thicker it gets to the point that if cold enough it will cease to circulate."
 
There seems to be some confusi

There seems to be some confusion here with some of the replies.

The question is what to use to WINTERIZE a marine engine.

This discussion is not about using ethylene glycol antifeeze or RV antifreeze when running a engine during normal operation.

RV antifreeze can not be used as a coolant for a closed coolant system or auto's or anything else.
 
"Kghost, I believe that most o

"Kghost, I believe that most of us understand the difference between the P/G and E/G antifreeze and the appropriate use of either! So we're good there!

If we were to stay in context with Walt's original questions(2) and comment(1)......the focus would be this.
Walt asks and says:
(a)"Can the engine be winterized without being able to crank it over?
(b) And what are the things I need to do?
(c) I normally suck the anti freeze in with the muffs and fog until it stalls.

My concern became item "C" since this is so misunderstood by average Joe!
People who may not get this RIGHT, can end up with a cracked block!


If Walt's winterizing involves freeze protection of the engine block/heads (keep in mind item 'c'), and Walt wants to protect the engine with "Anti-Freeze", then how can Antifreeze not be a part of the conversation?

Walt, I hope you are still with us here!
happy.gif


."
 
"Walt:

The through the hub

"Walt:

The through the hub antifreeze method will work IF the block, circulating pump and manifolds are drained of all water first."
 
"Ricardo,
Yes I am still watc

"Ricardo,
Yes I am still watching my post. All the information that I was looking for was supplied.
Only have winterized two seasons.Both times not draining just sucking RV thru the muffs and fogging. Now I will drain install the RV as sugessted and forget about the fogging. Thanks all for the help.
Walt"
 
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