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Tips for Bullet Proof Starting on a 440

L

lbarnes88

Contributing Member
"So my 440 is a good, strong m

"So my 440 is a good, strong motor. New heads, new manifolds. Runs very good. Idles very good. Starts well when it's been running that day.

But 2 main things I'd like to fix:
1)Needs a lot of cranking if I have not run it all week. Eventually it fires right up. I checked the choke, and it appears to be closed as designed, for a cold start.

2) Often seems to fire just enough to disengage the starter bendix, but not enough to actually start. Eventually, it does fire up, and run fine.

It has a new Fuel Pump, vintage Carter AFB carb, and Pertronix ignitor. I have verified that it makes a nice fat hot spark, so I don't think ignition is the issue. When she runs, she runs quite well, all day.

Any tips to get "Bullet-Proof" starting are welcome."
 
"Hee, hee, hee! Know exactly

"Hee, hee, hee! Know exactly what's happening here, and how to cure it.

What's it worth to you?

Jeff

PS: The gas in the carb evaporates after a few days. The cure? Spray some gas into the carb with a small electric pump, run off a momentary switch, to get her going. A few seconds of fuel is all it takes. I used a cheap pump with a length of 1/8 copper tubing to the carb, spraying gas down into the secondaries."
 
Does a new Edlebrock carb suff

Does a new Edlebrock carb suffer from the same evap issue? Or is it a "feature" of my '71 Carter AFB?

Also: Does pumping the throttle accomplish the same thing as pumping gas into carb before start?

Thanks for the tips.
 
Pumping the throttle works for

Pumping the throttle works for me even after storage but I'm running a Holley. If your gas is evaporating there won't be anything for the accelerator pump to pump out of your bowls. You won't have fuel pressure until the motor fires and the fuel pumps starts pumping.

Maybe that's why some guys are using electric fuel pumps but I don't remember anybody saying.
 
"Electric fuel pumps solved my

"Electric fuel pumps solved my cranking problem. My 318's were very hard to start after sitting about a week. I installed Carter elec fuel pumps.

I vent the bilge 5 min, turn on the ignition, wait 5 seconds for the pumps to do their thing, move throttles forward about 1 inch, turn ignition to start and get an immediate start and smooth idle.

The elec fuel pumps require some work to install and some safety wiring to be done but I like them a lot with my Edelbrock 1409's. My starters and batteries seem much happier too."
 
Electric pumps are a great ide

Electric pumps are a great idea but I think it would be difficult to do a legal installation that would pass a survey. Are the pumps marine rated and ignition protected? Do they have threaded fittings as hose clamps are not approved on a boat between the pump and carb? Did you wire them thru an oil pressure switch so they won’t run if the engine stops?

Dan
 
"Jeff, Why would the gas evapo

"Jeff, Why would the gas evaporate out of the bowls? Mine can sit for a week and starts as soon as I touch the key.
If he moved the fuel separator to a point higher than the carb inlet, would that help?"
 
"Searching around on the WWW,

"Searching around on the WWW, I see that even classic car folks experience the issue of fuel evaporation from the bowl in the carb. Apparently more common now, with today's fuel.
So this new Edlebrock marine carb some of you have gone to (for ex: 1409 or 1410): does it suffer from the same problem, or does it prevent this evaporation problem?"
 
Larry I have new 1409s on 360s

Larry I have new 1409s on 360s and have the same problem.....Id like to get it working with the turn of the switch it is rather annoying but I now they will start..
 
"Evaporation of fuel from the

"Evaporation of fuel from the bowl of a carb is just a matter of physics. Since the bowl is vented to the atmosphere, sooner or later it will evaporate... unless you are in Antartica.
Its all temperature, humidity and time related.
Its not a unique thing with marine applications, just more noticable since cars tend to be started more often.

Even an electric fuel pump won't "solve" the problem, unless you install a manual push button switch that will run the electric pump when pushed.

The "safest" way to do this is to install an electric fuel pump INSTEAD of the mechanical, observing the proper wiring for safety reasons.
Pump only runs under the following conditions:
1) You are cranking the engine
--or--
2) There is oil pressure

If you change to an electric, you will need to wire it accordingly and install a low oil pressure switch on a "T" to the oil pressure sender gauge. The manual bypass push button should be wired across the low oil pressure switch.

Maybe I'll get ambitious and draw up the wiring for this as this subject comes up a lot."
 
"So even when this boat was br

"So even when this boat was brand new (in 1971), the owner had the pleasure of cranking it and cranking it, every weekend when he went to use it, until it finally roared to life? That's just hard to believe. All these engnines always did that? How come some of them seem to fire right up, regardless of how long it's been? And others (like mine) need to crank so much? What do they got, that I ain't got? What ever it is, I want it."
 
"I put an outboard squeeze-bul

"I put an outboard squeeze-bulb primer on the fuel line up-stream of the water separator. Just like an outboard, once the carb bowl is full the bulb won't squeeze any more. Cut cranking time way down."
 
"RE: "What do they got, th

"RE: "What do they got, that I ain't got"

Besides, temp, humidity...etc. There are related other factors including:
a) FWC vs Raw water... FWC with engine temp at shut off of close to 180 degrees more likely to dry up the carb bowl than a raw water cooled one with a 140 degree temp.
b) Hull design, i.e., how hot does it get with the sun shining on the engine box... for that matter boat in the shade vs in the sun all day.

A carb bowl is a closed cup of gas sitting on a warm almost 1000# chunk of cast iron, with a hole in it the size of a straw to the air. Its sitting in a bigger box with who knows what kind of venting painted who knows what color sitting in the sun for who knows how many hours of the day."
 
"RE:" I put an outboard sq

"RE:" I put an outboard squeeze-bulb primer on the fuel line up-stream of the water separator. "

If the bulb is mounted below decks, this is a USCG violation. The squeeze bulb is not "rated" for closed engine compartments."
 
"The problem is far worse if y

"The problem is far worse if you shut down a very hot engine, I have found that idleing the last 15 minutes of my cruise helps. The hot intake really evaporates the fuel because of the exhaust crossover ports.

Dan"
 
"True, but the fuel pump and l

"True, but the fuel pump and line are still full of gas, making it a lesser problem.

Yes, my Edelbrocks do it as well. What baffles me is that some people--also with carbs and mechanical fuel pumps--don't seem to have that problem whatsoever, where others (like me) have it everytime I leave the boat for a week.

Jeff"
 
"Exaclty! A buddy has same eng

"Exaclty! A buddy has same engine, same carb, nearly the same boat, same lake, and BAM, it fires every time. I want that. There's gotta be some thing different about his carb, or something. Maybe I'll go swipe his carb in the middle of the night."
 
Go for it.....You have to star

Go for it.....You have to start somewhere. Maybe your floats aren't just right or your carb is leaking down. That's an old carb...I'm more interested in knowing why the 1409's are doing it.
 
"noel

[Re:"I think that

"noel

[Re:"I think that he fuel is being siphoned from the bowl."]

I think that the fuel inlet / needle & seat are too high in the float bowl to allow for any siphoning back into the fuel tank, to going on.

Fred 156-M"
 
"Noel,

The link you posted

"Noel,

The link you posted refers to an anti siphon valve that is placed between the fuel tank and the engine. Its purpose is to prevent the contents of the fuel tank from ending up in the bilge in the event of a failure of the fuel line/filter at some point below the fuel level in the tank.
It does not protect from fuel siphoning within the carb."
 
"Robert,
My memory is a littl

"Robert,
My memory is a little fuzzy. But back in the 80's when I was a Chrysler Marine engine technician, I recall installing anti-siphon valves on a pair of flat-6's. The purpose was to remedy the bowl from emptying back into tank, thus causing hard start.

Perhaps in my haste I googled the wrong component, but it’s the anti-siphon concept that I was trying to outline.

Maybe a simple check valve would do the trick.

,Noel."
 
"The float valve in these carb

"The float valve in these carbs is above the level of the fuel in the bowl and there is an "air gap" to the fuel, so siphoning back is unlikely. Then again, I haven't had my fingers in every make and model of carb out there."
 
"I installed a lm318 with a ca

"I installed a lm318 with a carter carb in my boat in 1981
It started fine regardless on the number of days between uses for over 15 years.
Then the first hint of a problem was difficulty starting after a hot shut down such a a fuel fill up. A five mile run to the fuel dock, shut down and restart 10 minutes later. the throttle had to be wide open to start it, as if flooded.
This progressed into the problem of difficulty starting after a long layovers.
I installed an Edelbrock 1409 and there was absolutely no change.
I believe that after shutdown, the gas in the float bowl is percolating due to heat and the pressure forces it down into the intake manifold.
The fuel tanks pickups are lower than the carb inlet
My question is why no problems for the first 15 years?
Any thoughts would be interesting.
Joe"
 
"well here's my 2 cents wo

"well here's my 2 cents worth,maybe it was carbon build up in the crossover in the intake, took 15 yrs to build a significant amount,it stays hot & boils the fuel away after shut down"
 
"I have a similar problem. One

"I have a similar problem. One of my 440's always starts cold, hot whatever. The other engine starts fine cold, but when warm, it's as if it is flooded. I agree that it could be carbon in the intake manifold crossover heating and evaporating the fuel. This engine used to have a stuck closed choke and as a result would be much more carboned up than the other engine. Any suggestions on cleaning out the crossover without removing the intake manifold?

Thanks"
 
Theres no carbon buildup in mi

Theres no carbon buildup in mine 8hours old clean as a whistle..And its still the same Im more inclined to think of the fuel evap but hey they run well and start thats what matters isnt it...Hey what about a oneway brass check valve on the fuel line To stop it from back flow to the tank???
 
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